toldailytopic: Do false predictions of end times affect the cause of Christ?

[ragTagblues]

In many ways yes. They can drive God haters even further from Him. They give them even more excuses to bad mouth Him. The God haters are looking for every excuse to hate God. False predictions like this add fuel to the fire and can damage the witness of honest Christians.

Some of atheists on here are already starting their bad mouthing using needless phrases like 'imaginary friends' to describe the godhead.

Kooks like date setters give Christians a bad name.

Okay, I'm picking up on this post way before actually reading the rest of the thread, so my apologies.

I simply have an issues with the word 'hate' in this post, how can you hate something you don't actually believe and generally it is not a hate of god, rather a disagreement in belief systems.

I have great love for religion, it's culture and the good things it has achieved without having a belief in god . . . To not believe in something is not to hate it.

 

[serpentdove]

It just makes believers look sillier than usual.

Tick...tick...tick...Matt. 24:3, 11.

 

[Squishes]

I doubt that this has done much in the minds of non-Christians because it isn't any crazier to us than the rest of what you believe.

 

[serpentdove]

...I simply have an issues with the word 'hate' in this post, how can you hate something you don't actually believe and generally it is not a hate of god, rather a disagreement in belief systems...

"...Wicked people, living under the power of Satan, will hate the Lord Jesus, His followers, and their righteous deeds (John 3:20; 8:44). Youngblood, Ronald F. ; Bruce, F. F. ; Harrison, R. K. ; Thomas Nelson Publishers: Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1995

You don't think people hate God? Ex. 20:5.

 

[serpentdove]

I doubt that this has done much in the minds of non-Christians because it isn't any crazier to us than the rest of what you believe.

Crazy love (Ro 5:8, 1 Cor 2:14).

 

[Nick M]

It is a compelling argument.

On one hand, Jesus said that "no man knoweth the Son," but he didn't mean God's children didn't know the Son (Lk 10:22). Further, Jesus also said the end would be like in the days of Noah (Mt 24:37-38), and Noah had a seven day warning (Ge 7:4).

On the other hand, Jesus explicitly said not even the messengers in heaven or the Son knows that day and hour:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus was speaking of judgement, not the departure of the church. The departure of the church was kept hidden along with the Body of Christ since the world began. He didn't speak of it. Of course, after the departure of the Body, Israel will face their purging and tribulation(Jacob's trouble).

Of course it matters. Just like it mattered when Donald Trump said show me the birth certificate, and when he did, he had egg all over his face. The one saving grace is that Trump is not a real conservative.

 

[Town Heretic]

Because he prophesied falsely,

No, he didn't. He calculated. And he calculated incorrectly. Not the same thing.

do you believe he should be put to death? Deut. 13:1–10

No. But I live under the fulfilled law, in the shadow of the cross. You? oly:

 

[eameece]

Jesus made predictions about what would happen to his generation, and it was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Beyond that, it is misreading the Bible to say it makes predictions, except that some Christians believe that some Bible passages predicted the first coming of Christ, as Jesus. But that's long past. The "end times" today refers to states of consciousness; the end of the world as we know it, and the beginning of seeing it a new way. Being spiritually reborn is the meaning of the second coming.

Even so, there is a certain consistency among the predictions these days. This apocalypse prediction gells with that of the onset of "the fourth turning" (a crisis period in history that comes every 80-plus years or so), and similar cyclic theories, as well as the end of the Mayan calendar in 2012, and predictions I and other astrologers have made about the new age or new cycles of civilization; as well as scientific predictions of climate changes, which are likely the most accurate among the forecasters. The climate change events are coming faster than the scientists predicted; but not faster than I predicted, using astrology. This does seem to be a time of increasing changes that challenge the status quo, as was predicted, and as is happening in many ways. The outlandish prediction of the beginning of a 5-month period of rapture and left behind apocalypse, is itself nothing but a sign of this general trend.

Predictions can come true, but some are better than others. It helps when you make predictions with at least one eye on scientifically-verifiable events, and knowledge of history and cultures, and not just codes in a book. You can more-easily predict some events in human society, than predict things like earthquakes based on nothing but numbers and symbols. The Earth obeys the laws of physics, and the "supernatural" in our world does not have enough power to it. The "supernatural" exists on a smaller scale, mostly as changes in consciousness in humans, as I suggested above. So that's what "predictions" are mostly concerned with.

God is not a supernatural big daddy dictator in the sky. God is not separate from us, or a being more divine than us. Predictions of vast miracles like Camping's are based on this mythical model of God. In reality, God is something we experience as the truth of our being. Other versions of Christianity than this, are just outdated myths propagated as social control of the masses. Those in the know in religious circles don't believe these myths; even the Pope doesn't.

But religion as a means of social control certainly answers the needs of the Religious Right and other proponents of "family values" such as Harold Camping.

 

[Town Heretic]

Even if what you say is true in practice regarding it being a "superior as a framework for existence" , which I rather doubt it is,

Then you're objectively, demonstrably wrong. I've set this out before. It isn't speculative. The case for faith, unlike the case for the existence of God, isn't guesswork and can be argued on merit. I've previously noted the difference between levels of happiness, charitable giving in both time and resources, and the application of faith to the intellectual, emotional, and even biological nature of man.

that doesn't make theism any more of a truth or atheism any more false.

Well sure. Or, it doesn't establish it as an objective truth. No question.

"self indulgent thoughts"??? :squint:

You mentioned the "selfishness" of Christians. This is an answer to that one sided observation, in part.

Atheists consist of all kinds of different people some good and some bad, living their lives in their own way and doing so with scant regard to not believing in gods.

Good. Keep expanding that realization and then explain the comment you made that led us here.

I was really only talking about individual Christians having kooky fundamentalist ideas and not about Christianity by and large, but if the cap fits...:e4e:

Well, you may have had that in your mind, but

At least no atheist is currently longing for the world to be ended for their own selfish aims of an afterlife with a god, while the rest of us get to burn in hell forever.

is a broad charge without that distinction. :e4e:

 

[misstoast]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for May 21st, 2011 09:06 AM

toldailytopic: Do false predictions of end times affect the cause of Christ?

I don't think so. It seems like if it would, then the cause of our Blessed Savior would've been in trouble long before now.

 

[Persephone66]

Tick...tick...tick...Matt. 24:3, 11.

Was there some point you were trying to make?

 

[Cracked]

I found it, frankly, trying today having to listen to the constant jokes about this prediction. I have many non-Christian friends, and some of them delight in making fun of this sort of thing. While I do think this sort of prophesying is fruitless, I also find that it emboldens mockers. Of course, these people are simply looking for excuses to mock really - they have made up their minds and any little bit of silliness overblown by Family Radio and the news they will quickly latch onto for guffaws.

I think of it more like a sad situation. Some of these people really did give up all they had for this particular date. If you want to give up all you have for Christ, do it - but do it for everyday and as long as you can witness for Him with a love for your family, your brothers and sisters in Christ, and your neighbor. I almost felt like I needed to stick up for Camping and his "followers". Perhaps I should for the poor Christians involved that pinned their hopes on a wild guess. Camping should repent and drop out of the eschatology business.

Someone asked to day, sarcastically, if I was saved and going in the rapture. I told them that I was, but that I was almost certain that I wasn't going today. They were a little taken back by that answer, expecting me to join in in the joke. I guess I just don't see it as funny.

 

[Todah]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for May 21st, 2011 09:06 AM

toldailytopic: Do false predictions of end times affect the cause of Christ?

Speaking for those of us who know that any prediction based on a pre-trib rapture is false, it did not.

Speaking for those who already do not believe in God, and hate Jesus and His followers, it probably did not.


How many false scientific models and predictions based upon them have failed ,and yet scientists, do not give up on science. For example how many rewrites of the age of the earth, and failed evolutionary models, have been proposed, and had to be redefined, and yet most scientists still cling to evolution, as the basis of life as we know it.

How many economic theories have failed, and yet we still have economists? How many philosophies of life, by their very nature, have been tested and failed, and yet we still have philosophers, and new theories concerning man and life.

I think only if it could be shown to me that Christ be not raised, would my faith be in vain, and put up for forfeiture. I believe that this risen Christ will return and it will be shortly after the abomination of a rebuilt temple has occurred, and a terrible 42 month great tribulation of Jews and Christians, worldwide, including America has nearly run its full course.

An Octogenarian minister from California, with a previous false prediction to his credit, is not even a blip on my radar screen. I am sad for him, and all who believed him. I hope their faith in a risen and someday??? returning Christ remains!

 

[alwight]

Then you're objectively, demonstrably wrong. I've set this out before. It isn't speculative. The case for faith, unlike the case for the existence of God, isn't guesswork and can be argued on merit. I've previously noted the difference between levels of happiness, charitable giving in both time and resources, and the application of faith to the intellectual, emotional, and even biological nature of man.

Being “wrong” in some respects is a subjective thing where I could be wrong by your standards but not mine. I personally value the discernment of what is in actual fact the truth more than living a possible untruth because of an apparent utility value in the here and now.

You mentioned the "selfishness" of Christians. This is an answer to that one sided observation, in part.

OK but it seemed like you were being a bit quaint about judging unexpressed thoughts, maybe I misunderstood. I presume now that you mean that atheists have expressed these thoughts.

I was really only talking about individual Christians having kooky fundamentalist ideas and not about Christianity by and large, but if the cap fits...

Well, you may have had that in your mind, but...

At least no atheist is currently longing for the world to be ended for their own selfish aims of an afterlife with a god, while the rest of us get to burn in hell forever.

is a broad charge without that distinction. :e4e:

Actually no, in this particular case I can talk about "all" atheists with confidence simply because if any "atheist" ever did happen to think what I said above, then clearly and logically they would not be atheists .

 

[Town Heretic]

Being “wrong” in some respects is a subjective thing where I could be wrong by your standards but not mine.

Sure. If you find unhappiness and less reliable support for the underlying social structure preferable, then by that subjective valuation you'd be right. If your instinct runs contrary to survival, you feel more comfortable without a larger sense of purpose, find relative value a plus...that sort of thing.

Now by and large people tend to prefer being happy. They value a more charitable and cohesive social compact. They desire to continue to exist, etc. And within that historically less divergent human tendency the theistic model is superior.

I personally value the discernment of what is in actual fact the truth more than living a possible untruth because of an apparent utility value in the here and now.

Except that there's only possible truth here, objectively speaking. You aren't choosing truth over speculation, no matter what you tell yourself or how well you phrase it.

OK but it seemed like you were being a bit quaint about judging unexpressed thoughts, maybe I misunderstood.

Seems like.

I presume now that you mean that atheists have expressed these thoughts.

I honestly don't see any reason for confusion here on counterpoint or in clarity.

Actually no, in this particular case I can talk about "all" atheists with confidence simply because if any "atheist" ever did happen to think what I said above, then clearly and logically they would not be atheists .

:chuckle: Or they'd be really, really bad at it...but we both know that wasn't my objection, which was to the inference that something (on principle) is going on with the one group that isn't else or that one group deserves a broader censure for being no more or less demonstrably crazy at the fringe than another.

 

[serpentdove]

[Death penalty] "No..."

Ex 18:16. oly:

"...But I live under the fulfilled law, in the shadow of the cross. You?"

The law is for the lawless (Mt 5:17,18). The death penalty shall not be remitted (Num 35:31).

 

[Sherman]

See I told you so. The guy was full of blarney. Not all Christians buy into the date setting garbage.

 

[Town Heretic]

The law is for the lawless (Mt 5:17,18).

That actually doesn't contradict me, you know. lain:

The death penalty shall not be remitted (Num 35:31).

Depends on how you read Romans, how you understand the narrative of the woman who was to be stoned to death for adultery, and what you see in that cross and the righteousness of our judgement absent grace.

 

[Squishes]

How many false scientific models and predictions based upon them have failed ,and yet scientists, do not give up on science. For example how many rewrites of the age of the earth, and failed evolutionary models, have been proposed, and had to be redefined, and yet most scientists still cling to evolution, as the basis of life as we know it.

?

 

[serpentdove]

"Read your own quotes. The unfulfilled law was for those who lived before Christ died on the cross."

The law is for the lawless (Mt 5:17,18). The death penalty shall not be remitted (Num 35:31). You thought we were supposed to oly: empty out the prisons and sing Kum Ba Ya because you claim to have become a Christian? Ho 4:6. :dizzy:

The law is divided into:

Moral, embodied in the ten commandments. De 5:22; 10:4.
Ceremonial, relating to manner of worshipping God. Le 7:37,38; Heb 9:1-7.
Civil, relating to administration of justice. De 17:9-11; Ac 23:3; 24:6.

Torrey, R.A.: The New Topical Text Book : A Scriptural Text Book for the Use of Ministers, Teachers, and All Christian Workers. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos research Systems, Inc., 1995, c1897

"Depends on how you read Romans, how you understand the narrative of the woman who was to be stoned to death for adultery, and what you see in that cross and the righteousness of our judgement absent grace."

You promote anarchy not revival (2Ch 34:19-21; Ne 8:13-18). Did you go to Harvard? :smokie:

"There is no lawyer. There's just you and me." ~ Jack Bauer, 24