So, you would like a nice communal church, which is episcopal, having independent Bishops overseeing Priests (ministers) and deacons?
toldailytopic: Church hierarchy: what is the proper biblical way that a church should
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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So, you would like a nice communal church, which is episcopal, having independent Bishops overseeing Priests (ministers) and deacons?
Right! One flock. One shepherd, which is Jesus. Glad to see you affirm that we don't need a pope. :thumb:
elohiym
Well-known member
Luke 22:25-27
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Matthew 23:8-12
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
1Peter 5:2-3
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Krsto
Well-known member
I'm only going by what you have said. You DO represent the Catholic Church, do you not?
Krsto
Well-known member
So if I read the scripture through this lens you speak of then non-sequiturs will actually seem to follow then I can come to conclusions not warranted from the scriptures I provide? Dude, hook me up with one of those lenses. I've always dreamed of turning my brain off and still being able to teach theology. Now if I could only get paid to do that . . .
Trumpetfolker
New member
Well, what I said was that the individual bishops were not autonomous. However, they composed an autonomous board with autonomous meaning responsible directly to God and the Word of His grace.
And ministers are the same as deacons.
And ministers are the same as deacons.
Ask Mr. Religion
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The form would resemble the republic form of the U.S.
The U. S. republic was modeled after the Presbyterian form of government, including limitations on authority and separation of powers. James Madison, was the primary author of the U.S. Constitution. Madison studied under John Witherspoon at Princeton University. Witherspoon, a university president, was the only minister (Presbyterian), to sign the Declaration of Independence. At least fourteen signers of the Constitution were Presbyterians.
The form of the church, with Scripture references, is described here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_standards/p395-form_presby_gov.html
A simple summary for those who are not interested in digging deeper is here:
http://sierraviewpca.org/2008/01/21/what-is-the-presbyterian-form-of-church-government/
Presbuteros, the Greek word meaning elder, is the source of the use of Presbyterian.
AMR
The U. S. republic was modeled after the Presbyterian form of government, including limitations on authority and separation of powers. James Madison, was the primary author of the U.S. Constitution. Madison studied under John Witherspoon at Princeton University. Witherspoon, a university president, was the only minister (Presbyterian), to sign the Declaration of Independence. At least fourteen signers of the Constitution were Presbyterians.
The form of the church, with Scripture references, is described here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_standards/p395-form_presby_gov.html
A simple summary for those who are not interested in digging deeper is here:
http://sierraviewpca.org/2008/01/21/what-is-the-presbyterian-form-of-church-government/
Presbuteros, the Greek word meaning elder, is the source of the use of Presbyterian.
AMR
This depends on the denomination; some ministers hold the same capacity and position as priests.
What I was eluding to is the Episcopalian Church.
I see the local church as being a city-wide church governed by elders/bishops/overseers and deacons. Trumpet explains it really well so I won't even try.
I think the gifts mentioned in Ephesians 4 (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers) are gifts distributed to members. These aren't governmental roles, they are skills certain people have. The list of gifts isn't a complete list, nor does each skill have an exact look to it, and there could be some overlap. The purpose of these gifts, however, is exact and well-defined (v12-13). I expect the elders and deacons to have a higher concentration of these gifts, but they are not limited to them. The worst thing you can do is squash all those gifts into one person and give him complete control over a local church. It'll work, and sometimes it works great, but it becomes just another cult of personality.
elohiym posted some important verses on the topic:
Luke 22:25-27, Matthew 23:8-12, 1Peter 5:2-3
In light of the Matthew passage... I will not call anyone "Pastor", "Pastor Timothy", "Father John", "Reverend Billy", etc. because I don't want to potentially build up that guy's pride. I will only go so far as to say, "this is John the pastor (to our church)" which is similar to "Paul the apostle (to the Gentiles)." If it isn't necessary to mention his gift I'll simply introduce him as a brother.
Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics.
I think the gifts mentioned in Ephesians 4 (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers) are gifts distributed to members. These aren't governmental roles, they are skills certain people have. The list of gifts isn't a complete list, nor does each skill have an exact look to it, and there could be some overlap. The purpose of these gifts, however, is exact and well-defined (v12-13). I expect the elders and deacons to have a higher concentration of these gifts, but they are not limited to them. The worst thing you can do is squash all those gifts into one person and give him complete control over a local church. It'll work, and sometimes it works great, but it becomes just another cult of personality.
elohiym posted some important verses on the topic:
Luke 22:25-27, Matthew 23:8-12, 1Peter 5:2-3
In light of the Matthew passage... I will not call anyone "Pastor", "Pastor Timothy", "Father John", "Reverend Billy", etc. because I don't want to potentially build up that guy's pride. I will only go so far as to say, "this is John the pastor (to our church)" which is similar to "Paul the apostle (to the Gentiles)." If it isn't necessary to mention his gift I'll simply introduce him as a brother.
Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics.
While we wait for the Church to come into a unity of the faith,
because your, mine and ours are the only ones that are right . . .
Here is the solution to making the best of a difficult situation
Paul outlined church hierarchy here:
But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
This of course does not preclude men and women from serving others in their assembly in various ways. The word "minister" should be a verb, not a noun. Pastors should preach, ministers should minister, deacons should deke. They should be compensated for expenses, but not for service.
Jamie
Trumpetfolker
New member
I'm not talking denom. Denoms do not care what the Bible shows. Someone like David Jeremiah (maybe not him) said that we've found a better way of doing church then the way they did it on the New Testament. I'm just showing New Testament pattern according to which we are all made priests (forgivers of sins).
Cruciform
New member
Sure, all you pastors, youth ministers, and Sunday school teachers...you can just go ahead and go home now. No need for you, since Jesus is the "Chief Shepherd"! :doh:
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Cruciform
New member
As already posted:
"...your entire description of supposed Catholic teaching and discipleship is one gigantic straw man fallacy, and resembles the actual situation not one little bit."
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Krsto
Well-known member
That explains a few things.
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