toldailytopic: Christian nation. Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to

[Nathon Detroit]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 26th, 2010 10:56 AM

toldailytopic: Christian nation. Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to be a Christian nation?

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[Town Heretic]

No.

I know, I know, but sometimes less is more.

 

[Dr.Watson]

I would say certainly not. Two of the more prominent founding fathers, namely Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, were vocal about their opposition to organized religion of any kind. Also, many of them were deists. Some atheist and agnostic. I cannot understand how someone would then come to the opinion that the founding fathers had an agreement that their nation would be one unified under a specific religious worship rather than simply unified by a common set of political ideals.

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 26th, 2010 10:56 AM

toldailytopic: Christian nation. Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to be a Christian nation?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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Of course not. Article XI clearly says that America is in no way shape or form founded on Christianity


Article XI.

As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion of Musslemen--and as the said states never have entered into any war with Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between two countries.

Article XII continues

In case of any dispute arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever...........................


The 1796 treaty with Tripoli was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

The treaty can be read by clicking here



As you can see America has decided to use religion many times to determine wars etc, but that is clearly against what was originally wanted for this country. Biggest example is America's hand in, cough, cough, helping force out the Palestinians from their homes and businesses, dumping them on the out skirts to form the state of Israel. Which has been the source of all atrocities since then with blood being shed on both sides. I think it is safe to call that religious interruption.



I also remember a founding father saying that the presidency should not be restricted based on religion. I forgot who said it, so I'll have to look that up

 

[Flipper]

If the founders intended the US to be a Christian nation, I suggest that failing to mention Jesus or the Trinity explicitly anywhere in the Constitution is a startling oversight.

It's almost like it was deliberate, or something.

 

[Katie]

No.

Wait for it ....

AGREED! :cheers:

America was clearly intended to be a Nation that was a safe harbor for those looking to escape persecutions of other lands, be it religious/racial/class etc. It was meant to offer freedom from persecution so that the individual had the right to choose their own personal path of preference .. though, it was not intended to offer freedom to those who would like to make the choice of what the right path is for everyone else. So then, how are we doing?

 

[The Horn]

What do you mean by a "Christian nation"? A nation ruled by the Christian religion, or some denomination of it?
When religious conservatives claim that "America is a Christian nation", they are correct in only one sense. It's a nation in which the majority of the people happen to be Christian, following that religion to some degree or another.
At the time of this nation's founding, Christianity was pretty much the only religion. But today, there are millions of Americans who are Jews,
Muslims,Hindus,Buddhists, Baha'is, Wiccans, and many other faiths, as well as more theists and agnostics that most people might think.
The problem is that those who call America a Christian nation pretty much want to give Christianity (or evangelical Christianity) too much power to make laws and interfere with the freedom of non-christians, or even Catholics.
But what is written in the Bible has absolutely no foundation as the basis on which to make US laws. Just because it contains passages allegedly condemning homosexuality ,for example, is no reason for anti-sodomy laws to exist. These are not only dated but barbaric.
Many Christians want prayer back in our schools. But whose prayer?
If you go into any classroom in New York, Chicago or Los Angeles, you will probably see youngsters whose parents are Jews,Muslims,Hindus,Buddhists and other faiths. Are they to be subject to Christian prayer? And what if some of them don't want to engage in prayer at all? That should be their right.
But if we were to return prayer to schools, what might happen if there were a highly religious evangelistic teacher in school, and Johnny said he didn't want to participate? That teacher might think,Johnny doesn't want to pray. Therefore,I'm going to lower his grades.
The claim that because prayer was removed from our schools, that this caused morality in general there to decline is just plain ludicrous.
Any immoral conduct you might see there or out of school is the result of many different causes, but not because of the removal of school prayer.
Students can still pray all they want in church or at home. No one is stopping them.
And as the old saying goes, when there's a math test, there's still plenty of prayer in school. Just the silent kind.
Christians in America are still absolutely free to worship as they please and attend church . No one in America is being persecuted for being a Christian.

 

[chrysostom]

Matthew 23:9 says we should not call anyone father but our Father in Heaven

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Matthew 23:9 says we should not call anyone father but our Father in Heaven

But as usual Paul veto's what Jesus (pbuh) said.

1 Corinthians 4:15

 

[Real Sorceror]

They certainly intended for the nation to contain Christians.

 

[chrysostom]

But as usual Paul veto's what Jesus (pbuh) said.

1 Corinthians 4:15

but that doesn't make sense

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

but that doesn't make sense

I agree it doesn't.

But are we agreeing on what about it doesn't make sense?

 

[The Berean]

They certainly intended for the nation to contain Christians.

:chuckle:

It probably never occurred to the Founding Fathers that America would one day be a multicultural nation.

 

[Gurucam]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 26th, 2010 10:56 AM

toldailytopic: Christian nation. Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to be a Christian nation?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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They seemed to have been 'in Christ' (or had insights) which is to say not at all like the watered down brandy and Moses oriented ideals which passes for Christianity, today, even in the U.S.A.

They stood apart.

"Freedom, liberty and justification with glorification, for those under grace of God" . . . they came close to framing the U.S.A. constitution along that essential and fundamental Christian ideal. At least they used the words.

Indeed to be in Christ is to know and live in accordance with the reality, that one has God given freedom, liberty and justification with glorification, when one is under grace of God. To be under grace of God is to be led unconditionally by precisely what the Holy Spirit has in mind for one as discerned within one's own heart.

 

[Katie]

Matthew 23:9 says we should not call anyone father but our Father in Heaven

I for one am curious as to what this might have to do with the title question. The only thing that I can figure is perhaps you think that the "we" means not only you, but the rest of us included? Though maybe you had something else in mind?

Granted, I am not opposed to calling the God of Israel, the One that Jesus cofirmed the Jewish are worshipping (John 4:22 KJV), Father .. but I am reluctant to say that *WE ALL* must comply. Of course, that would mean to let go of the three-in-one God of Christianity you know. I support you in your right to worship the Christian Gods, only I wonder ... do you support others in their right to worship freely and as they see fit their God(s) or even their right to not worship at all?

I am of the mind that it is how we treat one another, the creation of God, that is true worship anyway .... no? Then, I guess that brings me back to my first question. What is the meaning of what you said as it relates to the original question asked?

 

[kmoney]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 26th, 2010 10:56 AM

toldailytopic: Christian nation. Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to be a Christian nation?

No. However, at least some of them did think that religion was important to a well functioning and to maintain the government they were creating.


Whose got the over/under on how long it takes for this thread to turn into a quote war of the founding fathers? :chuckle:


On a side note - I recommend this book to read on this topic.
One Nation Under Law

 

[chrysostom]

I for one am curious as to what this might have to do with the title question. The only thing that I can figure is perhaps you think that the "we" means not only you, but the rest of us included? Though maybe you had something else in mind?

Granted, I am not opposed to calling the God of Israel, the One that Jesus cofirmed the Jewish are worshipping (John 4:22 KJV), Father .. but I am reluctant to say that *WE ALL* must comply. Of course, that would mean to let go of the three-in-one God of Christianity you know. I support you in your right to worship the Christian Gods, only I wonder ... do you support others in their right to worship freely and as they see fit their God(s) or even their right to not worship at all?

I am of the mind that it is how we treat one another, the creation of God, that is true worship anyway .... no? Then, I guess that brings me back to my first question. What is the meaning of what you said as it relates to the original question asked?

It doesn't and I am sorry I posted that
I did it because of this thread

 

[Gurucam]

I would say certainly not. Two of the more prominent founding fathers, namely Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, were vocal about their opposition to organized religion of any kind. Also, many of them were deists. Some atheist and agnostic. I cannot understand how someone would then come to the opinion that the founding fathers had an agreement that their nation would be one unified under a specific religious worship rather than simply unified by a common set of political ideals.

Your point supports the affirmative. Your point suggests that they were Christians.

Christianity is not a religion, organized or other wise.

Christianity is a group of people, described as the body of Christ, who are not led by any written dogma or priests but directly, precisely, privately and individually by the unseen (none physically) Spirit of God from within their own hearts, in real time, every time and all the time.

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Indeed to be in Christ is to know and live in accordance with the reality, that one has God given freedom, liberty and justification with glorification, when one is under grace of God. To be under grace of God is to be led unconditionally by precisely what the Holy Spirit has in mind for one as discerned within one's own heart.

But most religions believe this, so, how does that give any indication that a Christian ideology was used?

If we are going to present it like that, then lest just say it was built on a variety of religions.

The documents they came up with made it clear that NO religion shall or did play a role in the government.

 

[Gurucam]

If the founders intended the US to be a Christian nation, I suggest that failing to mention Jesus or the Trinity explicitly anywhere in the Constitution is a startling oversight.

It's almost like it was deliberate, or something.

Maybe they did not perceive, as you do, that the Trinity had anything to do with Christianity. May be they perceived that the Trinity had more to do with sectarianism and division.