toldailytopic: Christian nation. Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to

[Town Heretic]

A distinction should be made between the government and the nation. The US Constitution is a blue print for the operation of our government - specifically laying down the powers granted and those denied our government. The government was designed to not interfere in the lives of the citizens any more than was needed to manage the goals given in the preamble: "...to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity..."

While our government is not a "Christian" one, it was specifically designed to govern a nation of Christian - or at least quasi-Christian - people. J...

So no, the founders did not intend for our government to be Christian, but yes the founders did intend for our nation to be Christian - or at least a religious people who hold to the moral teachings of Christ.

Sometimes more is more, TH

I'd say they wrote it with an eye toward the governing of the people as they were constituted, but with an understanding that this commonality had a way of changing over time and so the references to the divine are general to a point.

Do you really want me to break out the Washington, Monroe, Jefferson quote books on the subject? I think it's closer to the truth to say that having kings and Popes declare the national conscience for generations, our humanly flawed but relatively wise forefathers designed an institution dedicated to the principle that each man should answer to his own good judgment and conscience with regard to God and to the government for his actions as they related to his neighbor.

How's that for a little more? :e4e:

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Of coursethey are. They said so in our Nation's founding and most important document.

Were they perfect? No way.

:mock: nocommonsense

Christianity is not religion. But many who claim to be Christain are certainly religous. See, you are going to hell up and you try to please God for righteousness sake. In its basic form, that is religion. I don't do that, nor do Christians.

Can it, Christianity is a religion, and you sound dumb for even trying to say it isn't.



Ammo avatar, crazy banana dancing, and the verbal hateful language by Paul in his letter to Titus talking bout them Jews again ............ hmmmmmm :think:

OMG! WE DUN FOUND OURSELVES A CRAZY FUNDAMENTALIST C-BASS! RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lain:

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

A distinction should be made between the government and the nation. The US Constitution is a blue print for the operation of our government - specifically laying down the powers granted and those denied our government. The government was designed to not interfere in the lives of the citizens any more than was needed to manage the goals given in the preamble: "...to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity..."

While our government is not a "Christian" one, it was specifically designed to govern a nation of Christian - or at least quasi-Christian - people. John Adams said, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

Here are a few more quotes from founders:

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

Alexander Hamilton:
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

- more​

So no, the founders did not intend for our government to be Christian, but yes the founders did intend for our nation to be Christian - or at least a religious people who hold to the moral teachings of Christ.

Sometimes more is more, TH

Founding Father Quotes:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802


They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
-Thomas Jefferson "Notes on Virginia"


Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson - letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787


"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one (Trinity). But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
-Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803


Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-Thomas Jefferson -in his private journal, Feb. 1800


Did you not know that Ol' Ben became a Diest?

Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." -Benjamin Franklin


In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it.-Benjamin Franklin

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.-Benjamin Franklin




You said: " Sometimes more is more, TH "


No, sometimes, more just means more cherry picking. :wave:

 

[Nick M]

Founding Father quotes (signers of the Declaration)

Has it [government] any solid foundation? any chief cornerstone. . . ? I think it has an everlasting foundation in the unchangeable will of God, the Author of Nature whose laws never vary. . . . Government. . . . is by no means an arbitrary thing depending merely on compact or human will for its existence. . . . The power of God Almighty is the only power that can properly and strictly be called supreme and absolute. In the order of nature immediately under Him comes the power of a simple democracy, or the power of the whole over the whole. . . . [God is] the only monarch in the universe who has a clear and indisputable right to absolute power because He is the only one who is omniscient as well as omnipotent. . . . The sum of my argument is that civil government is of God, that the administrators of it were originally the whole people

Kings or parliaments could not give the rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth. They are not annexed to us by parchments and seals. They are created in us by the decrees of Providence, which establish the laws of our nature. They are born with us; exist with us; and cannot be taken from us by any human power without taking our lives. In short, they are founded on the immutable maxims of reason and justice. It would be an insult on the Divine Majesty to say that he has given or allowed any man or body of men a right to make me miserable

We finally beg leave to assert that the first planters of these colonies were pious Christians; were faithful subjects; who, with a fortitude and perseverance little known and less considered, settled these wild countries by God’s goodness and their own amazing labors [and] thereby added a most valuable dependence to the crown of Great-Britain; were ever dutifully subservient to her interests; so taught their children that not one has been disaffected to this day; but all have honestly obeyed every royal command and cheerfully submitted to every constitutional law; . . . have carefully avoided every offensive measure . . . have never been troublesome or expensive to the mother country; have kept due order and supported a regular government; have maintained peace and practiced Christianity; and in all conditions and in every relation have demeaned themselves as loyal, as dutiful, and as faithful subjects ought; and that no kingdom or state hath, or ever had, colonies more quiet, more obedient, or more profitable, than these have ever been

The Rights of the Colonists as Christians. These may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament

Ben became a diest? I guess I better do it also!

More of the same, collected over the internet from various writings.

I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.

On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.

I John Hancock, . . . being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to God-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make and ordain this my last will and testament…Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of God that gave it: and my body I recommend to the earth . . . nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God.

And for the retarded troll, I could go on and on and on. But why bother. Your mind is made up. You hate God, and want to spit in his face. If there are any youngsters out there, it isn't that hard to find the information posted about the Christians that founded America. Try the WallBuilders, where these quotes came from.

Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved son. He has been pleased to bless me with excellent parents, with a virtuous wife, and with worthy children. His protection has companied me through many eventful years, faithfully employed in the service of my country; His providence has not only conducted me to this tranquil situation but also given me abundant reason to be contented and thankful. Blessed be His holy name!

Here is a list of good reads, like Abe Licolns second inagural address.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?cat=HW

 

[chrysostom]

it was the intention of the founding fathers to have a place where you could freely practice your religion

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Founding Father quotes (signers of the Declaration)









Ben became a diest? I guess I better do it also!

More of the same, collected over the internet from various writings.







And for the retarded troll, I could go on and on and on. But why bother. Your mind is made up. You hate God, and want to spit in his face. If there are any youngsters out there, it isn't that hard to find the information posted about the Christians that founded America. Try the WallBuilders, where these quotes came from.



Here is a list of good reads, like Abe Licolns second inagural address.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?cat=HW

More cherry picking. lain:

I can post more that say the opposite but what's the point? I guess you were loading your ammo and missed the point of me posting quotes by other founding fathers verses the ones that the other guy chose to post, right? Obviously you did, since you repeated the same exact thing and just showed how the cherry picking can work both ways.

Why did you throw old Ab Lincoln out there?

"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession." -Spoken by Abraham Lincoln

See we can cherry pick all the random things we want from them, and say, "YOU SEE!" lain:

Yes, lets go to a Christian site and find all the Christian things that we can say fit our views. lain:


Why don't you cut right to it and find in the founding documents where it mentions anything that you are asserting about your religious beliefs.

You said: "If there are any youngsters out there, it isn't that hard to find the information posted about the Christians that founded America."

I believe the info would be called "Christians Who Founded America," not "The Christians Founded America." Now, I think any youngster can grasp that difference.


I hate God? Wow, that is a strong accusation right there.

I mean, if you were him I may be tempted, but that would be blasphemous. I don't even hate you, i think "strongly dislike you" times infinity is a better way of putting it.

 

[Gurucam]

Stop it, Christianity is a religion, just like Islam, Judaism etc.

Come on now.

Moses-ism is founded on the Gospel of circumcision, i.e. the Old Testament and the Ten Commandments as committed originally onto Moses and later onto Peter, after the addition of two more Commandments. This is righteousness of God with laws. This is for those who still have veils over their hearts, i.e. those who are not yet 'born again'.

Christianity is founded on the Gospel of un-circumcision as committed onto Paul. It is righteousness of God without any law. This is for those who have lost the veils over their hearts, i.e. the 'born again'. The gosple of un-circumcision is as follows:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63698

Go ahead, click on it.

Then read it, then tell me if it is a religion like Islam, Judaism etc.

Are you familiar with Sufism, which is not a religion but a Spiritual tradition? It's parallel in religion is Islam.

Seems that Moses-ism (religion) and Christianity (Spiritual tradition) goes together like Islam (religion) and Sufism (Spiritual tradition).

Religion is founded on physical discernment and intellectual processing through one's brain which is a physical organ. Spirituality is founded on intuitive discernment and intuitive knowing. Intuitions are the faculties of our spirit or inward man (a none physical entity).

Intuitions are describes as our sixth sense, one beyond the physical. These were described, by the Lord Jesus Christ, as 'the eyes to see', 'the ears to hear' and 'the hearts to understand', Truth. These faculties come to one's awareness when the veil over one's heart is lifted. That is, when one comes into awareness of one's spirit or heart. This is described as being born a second time, to be born of spirit, i.e. to be 'born again'.

The Lord Jesus Christ confirmed unequivocally, that only when one has 'the eyes to see', 'the ears to hear' and 'the heart to understand', Truth that one is given to know the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven.

 

[kmoney]

There's the quote war.


And Christianity is a religion. Stop being foolish people. :doh:

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

There's the quote war.


And Christianity is a religion. Stop being foolish people. :doh:

:thumb: LOL yep

They claim to follow a religious leader, but deny being religious :think:

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Then read it, then tell me if it is a religion like Islam, Judaism etc.

Are you familiar with Sufism, which is not a religion but a Spiritual tradition? It's parallel in religions is Islam.

Yes, it is just like Islam and Judaism.


"Are you familiar with Sufism, which is not a religion but a Spiritual tradition? It's parallel in religions is Islam."

Are you familiar with Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition? .lain:

 

[bybee]

Sarcasm?

Sarcasm?

Yes, it is just like Islam and Judaism.


"Are you familiar with Sufism, which is not a religion but a Spiritual tradition? It's parallel in religions is Islam."

Are you familiar with Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition? .lain:

You are very swift to spout sarcasm but cry like a Girly-man when it comes back at you. You need a time out! Come back when you have a civil tongue in your head! peace, bybee:down:

 

[Granite]

They absolutely did not found a Christian nation; and even if they had, this wouldn't entitle Christians today to a thing.

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

You are very swift to spout sarcasm but cry like a Girly-man when it comes back at you. You need a time out! Come back when you have a civil tongue in your head! peace, bybee:down:

Hey, it was to hard to pass up! Is it my fault he is being ridiculous?

 

[Gurucam]

Are you familiar with Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition? .lain:

No. Is that what you are about?

Seems that that must be the tradition of most everyone because my and your Lord Jesus Christ, did confirm clearly that, many will be called but few chosen and that people err (and are not chosen) when they do not know Truth.

So it seems that, the great masses of people in what passes for Christianity are in Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition. They cannot be in Christianity. If they were into Truth in their tradition, then everyone will be called and saved and delivered, but according to my and your Lord Jesus Christ, that ain't happening and it ain't going to happen.

Indeed the very great majority will be misled by false prophets who came in Jesus' name. I suspect that you are among this great majority, are you? I mean do you hold the traditional belief? This belief cannot be Truth. This must be Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition

Is this what your are 'in', together with these absolutely great majority of people who are called to Christianity but not chosen (i.e. not make it)?

It kind of bugles the mind when one perceive how 'few' can be 'a few', don't you think? Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition, must be reigning where most everyone mistakenly believe that Truth reigns.

Do you share a belief that is held by more than a couple hundred thousand people?

If yes, then (once again) according to my and your Lord Jesus Christ, you are likely to be in serious jeopardy of being among the many who are misled by false prophets who came in His name, i.e. the many who will not be chosen, i.e. who will not make the grade.

How are you facing up to the following prophesies by our Lord Jesus Christ?

- many will be called to Christianity but few will make the grade.
- those who do not know Truth err.
- many false prophets will come in His name and misguide many.

Do know your KJV N.T. or do you need me to provide the chapter and verse of these revelations in the KJV N.T.?

Be careful.

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

No. Is that what you are about?

Seems that that must be the tradition of most everyone because my and your Lord Jesus Christ, did confirm clearly that, many will be called but few chosen and that people err (and are not chosen) when they do not know Truth.

So it seems that, the great masses of people in what passes for Christianity are in Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition. They cannot be in Christianity. If they were into Truth in their tradition, then everyone will be called and saved and delivered, but according to my and your Lord Jesus Christ, that ain't happening and it ain't going to happen.

Indeed the very great majority will be misled buy false prophets who came in Jesus' name. I suspect that you are among this great majority, are you? I mean do you hold the traditional belief? This belief cannot be Truth. This must be Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition

Is this what your are 'in', together with these absolutely great majority of people who are called to Christianity but not chosen (i.e. not make it)?

It kind of bugles the mind when one perceive how 'few' can be 'a few', don't you think? Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition, must be reigning where most everyone mistakenly believe that Truth reigns.

Do you share a belief that is held by more than a couple hundred thousand people?

If yes, then (once again) according to my and your Lord Jesus Christ, you are likely to be in serious jeopardy of being among the many who are misled by false prophets who came in His name, i.e. the many who will not be chosen, i.e. who will not make the grade.

How are you facing up to the following prophesies by our Lord Jesus Christ?

- many will be called to Christianity but few will make the grade.
- those who do not know Truth err.
- many false prophets will come in His name and misguide many.

Do know your KJV N.T. or do you need me to provide the chapter and verse of these revelations in the KJV N.T.?

Be careful.

"So it seems that, the great masses of people in what passes for Christianity are in Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition. They cannot be in Christianity. "

I agree, not all Christians practice Buffoonery, it's just the ones who try to prove it's not a religion.

:juggle: After all that juggling Christianity is still a religion. :banned:

 

[Lighthouse]

"Anyone who believes most of them were not Christians is daft. They founded this country on principles in line with Christianity because that is what they believed. But they did not intend for any religion to be established. They stated as much. They did not intend a theocracy. And it is clear they did not intend theonomy, for they did not make any resemblance to hard fast rules in line with such. If they had the death penalty would exist in all states, no exceptions. And would be the punishment for at least murder, rape and kidnapping."


". They founded this country on principles in line with Christianity because that is what they believed. "


Uh, yea, you did imply that America was founded on Christian principles.

And your sentence prior set the stage for your assertion: "Anyone who believes most of them were not Christians is daft.

lain:

No, I said principles in line with Christianity. There's a difference. And you're an idiot.

 

[Gurucam]

"So it seems that, the great masses of people in what passes for Christianity are in Goofism, which is not a smart mindset but a Buffoonery tradition. They cannot be in Christianity. "

I agree, not all Christians practice Buffoonery, it's just the ones who try to prove it's not a religion.

:juggle: After all that juggling Christianity is still a religion. :banned:

Re: "After all that juggling Christianity is still a religion."

This is the biggest deception.

And the deception which will cause the absolute great majority of aspiring Christians to err and not be chosen must be a big one like the false belief that "Christianity is a religion" and not a Spiritual tradition (i.e. a different thing).

Do you believe that it is some small or obscure little deception which will be responsible for bringing down most everything and everyone in traditional Christianity? :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: is at hand!

The gosple of circumcision which was committed onto Peter was erroneously believed to be Christianity and projected as Christianity. Peter's church was essentially Moses-ism, a religion. This is about being guided by ideals and laws which come to one from an external source, through one's physical side.

Fact is that the gosple of un-circumcision which was committed onto Paul is Christianity. This is a Spiritual tradition. It is about being led directly and precisely by the Spirit of God (an internal source) as discerned within one's heart or spirit.

:idea: Paul's revelation in Galatians: 4 verses: 5, 6 & 7: "To redeem those who were under the law, so that they could become adopted sons of God, God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into their hearts (or spirits)." :idea: Paul’s revelation in Galatians: 4 verse: 7: that, by adapting the approach in Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6, one becomes heir of God through Christ." 'The heirs of God', will inherit earth, in God's kingdom of heaven, in the fullness of time. They are the saved and delivered, the chosen few from among the many called.

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

No, I said principles in line with Christianity. There's a difference. And you're an idiot.

"Anyone who believes most of them were not Christians is daft. They founded this country on principles in line with Christianity because that is what they believed."

Yea, you set it up and asserted that it was in line with Christian principles, because most of them were Christians, and that's what they believed.

Maybe you just have problems comprehending your own words. Don't feel bad, its a common trait among the mentally challenged.:bang:


I would agree with the "me being an idiot" part of your comment. Reading things produced by idiots has to lower your IQ just a bit, right?:kookoo:

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Re: "After all that juggling Christianity is still a religion."

This is the biggest deception.

And the deception which will cause the absolute great majority of aspiring Christians to err and not be chosen must be a big one like the false belief that "Christianity is a religion" and not a Spiritual tradition (i.e. a different thing).

Do you believe that it is some small or obscure little deception which will be responsible for bringing down most everything and everyone in traditional Christianity? :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: is at hand!

The gosple of circumcision which was committed onto Peter was erroneously believed to be Christianity and projected as Christianity. Peter's church was essentially Moses-ism, a religion. This is about being guided by ideals and laws which come to one from an external source, through one's physical side.

Fact is that the gosple of un-circumcision which was committed onto Paul is Christianity. This is a Spiritual tradition. It is about being led directly and precisely by the Spirit of God (an internal source) as discerned within one's heart or spirit.

:idea: Paul's revelation in Galatians: 4 verses: 5, 6 & 7: "To redeem those who were under the law, so that they could become adopted sons of God, God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into their hearts (or spirits)." :idea: Paul’s revelation in Galatians: 4 verse: 7: that, by adapting the approach in Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6, one becomes heir of God through Christ." 'The heirs of God', will inherit earth, in God's kingdom of heaven, in the fullness of time. They are the saved and delivered, the chosen few from among the many called.

Still a religion. :noway:

On the TOL account details page, they asked you, "What is your religious affiliation." And you chose "Christian" because that is your RELIGION. :dunce:

Maybe you need to go change it to other, Atheist, or something along those lines and stop being silly.:yoshi:

OMG, I can't believe I didn't find this site yrs ago, it's to much fun.

I feel like Im at the circus :juggle: ba da da dada

 

[Lighthouse]

"Anyone who believes most of them were not Christians is daft. They founded this country on principles in line with Christianity because that is what they believed."

Yea, you set it up and asserted that it was in line with Christian principles, because most of them were Christians, and that's what they believed.

Maybe you just have problems comprehending your own words. Don't feel bad, its a common trait among the mentally challenged.:bang:


I would agree with the "me being an idiot" part of your comment. Reading things produced by idiots has to lower your IQ just a bit, right?:kookoo:

They were not Christian principles for Christian principles would have been religious, but they were principles in line with Christianity in that they did not stand in opposition to it and in fact agreed with it as far as possible without being religious. "In line with," means "in agreement with," but does not mean "exactly the same as."