toldailytopic: Can a saved person lose their salvation?

[S0Z0]

Right, baptism. :thumb: Doesn't imply OSAS :nono:

Being baptized into Christ absolutely does. To deny it is to deny Christ and to deny the Gospel. But, we already knew that about you, so nothing new to learn here.

 

[kmoney]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Philippians 3:21 KJV Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Of course that is true for some people. Those verses don't negate what Zippy has quoted. Or other verses by Paul.

 

[heir]

If you read a bit closer you would see your error:

"are saved" means exactly what it says~are saved. I believe my Bible. I do not correct it.

1 Cor 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Paul gives a condition and follows it by noting the fact that it is possible to believe in vain. Quite the opposite of what you try to imply.

"believed in vain" of verse 2 in the context of the chapter (resurrection) would be those who said there was no resurrection from the dead; "how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?"

1 Corinthians 15:12 KJV Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Again, this is not a past event. Catholics use such phrases all the time ("By grace you are saved").

:rotfl: Catholics don't believe they are saved. Have you talked with chrys lately?

Do your homework and you'll find that this is speaking of a promissory note, or a down payment, not a full payment. It is a taste of the Holy Spirit and the promise of salvation. But are those who have tasted the Holy Spirit 100% secure?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

You CANNOT use Hebrews on someone in the dispensation of the grace of God to negate what Paul wrote. Hebrews was not written TO the Body of Christ. Do YOUR homework.

 

[zippy2006]

"are saved" means exactly what it says~are saved. I believe my Bible. I do not correct it.

This is not an answer. You read what you want to see, and apparently do not even correct yourself when it is shown that your interpretation is faulty. :idunno:

"believed in vain" of verse 2 in the context of the chapter (resurrection) would be those who said there was no resurrection from the dead; "how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?"

Then what did they believe in vain?

1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
1 Cor 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

It is obvious that Paul is referring to the gospel he preached to them, which they received, in which they stand, and in which they are saved. Unless they believed in vain.

Your argument is that they never believed. But Paul himself says they believed, just in vain. You are again reading what you want, not what is on the page.

:rotfl: Catholics don't believe they are saved. Have you talked with chrys lately?

If by "are" you mean what a good translation says, "are being," then sure we do. If chrys is your source of Catholic doctrine then you are being even less sincere than I'd thought.

You CANNOT use Hebrews on someone in the dispensation of the grace of God to negate what Paul wrote. Hebrews was not written TO the Body of Christ. Do YOUR homework.

Right, because Hebrews is part of the OT. :dizzy: Are you a MADist? The Body of Christ is one, there is neither Jew nor Greek in the Body (Gal 3:28).

 

[heir]

This is not an answer. You read what you want to see, and apparently do not even correct yourself when it is shown that your interpretation is faulty. :idunno:

You are the one that wants "are saved" to mean something other than what it means, not me. You are the one that has a problem with it. I do not. I believe it. I know that the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...for therein is the righteousness of God revealed Romans 1:16-17 KJV. It is the gospel that I received, wherein I stand by which also I am saved ("are saved").

Then what did they believe in vain?

1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
1 Cor 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

It's as if you are not reading the passage at all. Paul was declaring unto them the gospel that he preached unto them, which also they received (believed/accepted), by wherein the stood (stand) by which also they "are saved" UNLESS they had believed in vain. There were evidently some there, the "some among you" of verse 12 (1 Corinthians 15:12 KJV) that said there was no resurrection of the dead. That does not negate the ones who received the gospel (the "are saved" of the group).

Your argument is that they never believed. But Paul himself says they believed, just in vain. You are again reading what you want, not what is on the page.

See above. My position is that there were some among the those who "are saved" that did not believe in the resurrection of the dead.

 

[heir]

Right, because Hebrews is part of the OT. :dizzy: Are you a MADist? The Body of Christ is one, there is neither Jew nor Greek in the Body (Gal 3:28).

Ah, but there is more than Jews and Greeks that make up the one new man. My point was that you cannot use doctrine from Hebrews to negate Paul. My point stands.

And I prefer rightly dividing Bible believer. each:

 

[zippy2006]

You are the one that wants "are saved" to mean something other than what it means, not me.

No, I corrected your misinterpretation. I gave you the Greek, you can see that a number of translations do render it as "are being saved," and Sozo, who believes in OSAS, agreed with me. Furthermore, I am not saying "are saved" is a particularly poor translation, but simply pointing out that it is not referring to a past event or a "done deal." The rest of Paul's writings make this crystal clear.

It's as if you are not reading the passage at all. Paul was declaring unto them the gospel that he preached unto them, which also they received (believed/accepted), by wherein the stood (stand) by which also they "are saved" UNLESS they had believed in vain. There were evidently some there, the "some among you" of verse 12 (1 Corinthians 15:12 KJV) that there was no resurrection of the dead. That does not negate the ones who received the gospel the "are saved" of the group.

I addressed this above. Paul says they believed, and yet may not be saved (believed in vain). You think anyone who believes will be saved. Take it up with Paul, not me. :idunno:

Ah, but there is more than Jews and Greeks that make up the one new man. My point was that you cannot use doctrine from Hebrews to negate Paul. My point stands.

And I prefer rightly dividing Bible believer. each:

Right, so you think that Hebrews contradicts Paul's writings and is therefore addressed to the Jews, even though Paul says that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles in the New Covenant. :think: I don't think Hebrews contradicts Paul's writings, they are both Scripture. :idunno:

You've skipped over a number of my points. One which I would like you to answer is this:

1 Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

:e4e:

 

[S0Z0]

No, I corrected your misinterpretation. I gave you the Greek, you can see that a number of translations do render it as "are being saved," and Sozo, who believes in OSAS, agreed with me.

You are a liar. I did not agree with you. What I did do is prove to you that it does not say what YOU claim it says.

I used YOUR translation to prove YOU wrong.

Those who believe the gospel are "being" saved. Paul is showing how to people like YOU the cross is foolishness, but to those of us who are (being) saved it is the power of God.

It is a singular "Greek" word sōzomenois and in no way implies a process or future event. It is speaking of being rescued. The correct translation is "are saved".

 

[zippy2006]

It is a singular "Greek" word sōzomenois and in no way implies a process or future event. It is speaking of being rescued. The correct translation is "are saved".

You still don't get it, do you? Salvation is not an event. I am not saying it is a future event. You agreed with my point here, whether you know it or not:

The wording and the context is similar to the dying of cloth.

Just as a cloth is "being dyed" (which is an event), so are those who are "being saved".

That is exactly right, we are "being saved."

 

[S0Z0]

You still don't get it, do you?

I do, you do not.

Salvation is not an event.

Yes, it is. by definition it is an event. The word cannot be interpreted to be a process. Only an idiot would interpret it as a process.

That is exactly right, we are "being saved."

You're a moron. A hell-bound moron. I'm not kidding. You will wake up in hell going "what the hell happen?"

 

[genuineoriginal]

Dear genuineoriginal,

I can't think of more of a cause to stumble than to deceive them into thinking that they can do anything on their own.
I think Gal6:2-3 explains quite clearly that we are to bring down the proud by any means necessary, bearing their burdens, and fulfilling the law of Christ.

In Him,
-Jed

It looks like you are taking the words out of context and making them say the opposite of what was written.

Galatians 6:1-3 1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.​

Here is the list of faults which can overtake a believer:

Galatians 5:19-21 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​

The "weak" believer does not follow after the flesh to do the works of the flesh because the "weak" believer knows that these are against the will of God.
The "weak" believer has problems with the other things, like whether to violate the dietary laws or whether to keep the Sabbath. Because the "weak" believer is not sure whether violating the dietary laws is a sin, the "weak" believer will suffer condemnation for violating the dietary laws.
The "strong" believer does not follow after the flesh to do the works of the flesh because the "strong" believer will not allow any of those things to separate them from the love of God.

The people thinking they are something they are not and deceiving themselves are the ones that believe they can do the works of the flesh and not become entangled again in bondage to sin. They have not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, yet they still believe that they are Christ's.

 

[Jedidiah]

It looks like you are taking the words out of context and making them say the opposite of what was written.

Galatians 6:1-3 1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.​

Here is the list of faults which can overtake a believer:

Galatians 5:19-21 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​

The "weak" believer does not follow after the flesh to do the works of the flesh because the "weak" believer knows that these are against the will of God.
The "weak" believer has problems with the other things, like whether to violate the dietary laws or whether to keep the Sabbath. Because the "weak" believer is not sure whether violating the dietary laws is a sin, the "weak" believer will suffer condemnation for violating the dietary laws.
The "strong" believer does not follow after the flesh to do the works of the flesh because the "strong" believer will not allow any of those things to separate them from the love of God.

The people thinking they are something they are not and deceiving themselves are the ones that believe they can do the works of the flesh and not become entangled again in bondage to sin. They have not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, yet they still believe that they are Christ's.

So a man who thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, is a man who believes he can do the works of the flesh, and not become entangled again in bondage to sin.
And a man who rightly thinks himself to be nothing, is a man who believes that if he does the works of the flesh, he will become entangled again in bondage to sin.
And we bear each other's burdens by convincing each other that we are nothing, not something.
So that we will not do the works of the flesh.
So that we will not become entangled again in bondage to sin.
So the law of Christ is really Gal5:19,20,21 and not Gal6:2-3.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So a man who thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, is a man who believes he can do the works of the flesh, and not become entangled again in bondage to sin.
And a man who rightly thinks himself to be nothing, is a man who believes that if he does the works of the flesh, he will become entangled again in bondage to sin.
And we bear each other's burdens by convincing each other that we are nothing, not something.
So that we will not do the works of the flesh.
So that we will not become entangled again in bondage to sin.
So the law of Christ is really Gal5:19,20,21 and not Gal6:2-3.

2 Peter 2:12-18 12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.​

 

[Jedidiah]

2 Peter 2:12-18 12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.​

So then there are other men.
Men who are not bound by sin, but by whom sin is bound.

 

[Lighthouse]

Being baptized into Christ absolutely does. To deny it is to deny Christ and to deny the Gospel. But, we already knew that about you, so nothing new to learn here.

I think he meant water baptism, as he clearly doesn't know the difference.

 

[heir]

Of course that is true for some people. Those verses don't negate what Zippy has quoted. Or other verses by Paul.

So you think Paul contradicts himself?

I don't care what the religious zippy has to say. He ought to zip his lip. He is only hear to trouble others. He is in unbelief.

Ephesians 2:2 KJV Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 

[heir]

No, I corrected your misinterpretation. I gave you the Greek, you can see that a number of translations do render it as "are being saved," and Sozo, who believes in OSAS, agreed with me. Furthermore, I am not saying "are saved" is a particularly poor translation, but simply pointing out that it is not referring to a past event or a "done deal." The rest of Paul's writings make this crystal clear.

Romans 4:25 KJV Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Colossians 2:9-13 KJV For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 4:32 KJV And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Galatians 2:20 KJV I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It all points back to the cross. Looks like a "past event", a "done deal" to me! Praise the Lord! Believe it, zippy!

I addressed this above. Paul says they believed, and yet may not be saved (believed in vain). You think anyone who believes will be saved. Take it up with Paul, not me. :idunno:

Paul said there were some among them who didn't believe in ressurection of the dead. It does not negate that the ones who received the gospel that Paul preached were saved. You are not being honest with yourself or the scriptures. big shocker there.

Right, so you think that Hebrews contradicts Paul's writings and is therefore addressed to the Jews, even though Paul says that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles in the New Covenant. :think: I don't think Hebrews contradicts Paul's writings, they are both Scripture. :idunno:

Paul was an able minister of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit

2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

That would be "the righteousness of God" without the law. And look at what is upon the believer who believes the gospel.

Romans 3:21-22 KJV But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

And where is the rightousness of God revealed? In the gospel of Christ!

Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

the gospel of Christ: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV

You've skipped over a number of my points. One which I would like you to answer is this:

1 Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

:e4e:

1 Corinthians 9:16-27 KJV For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! 17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. 18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. 24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

castaway from a reward, zippy

Acts 20:24 KJV But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

2 Timothy 4:6-8 KJV For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So then there are other men.
Men who are not bound by sin

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.​

 

[S0Z0]

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Yep. The word "servant" is doúlos, and it means that the one who sins belongs to sin. They are sin's slave. That is why they sin.

To interpret it any other way is to pervert what Jesus said.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Yep. The word "servant" is doúlos, and it means that the one who sins belongs to sin. They are sin's slave. That is why they sin.

To interpret it any other way is to pervert what Jesus said.

Yes,

Thank the Lord for


Romans 7:17 (KJV)
Romans 7:20 (KJV)


the fact that those who are saved are identified with Christ and no longer with their flesh