toldailytopic: Can a person reject the divinity of Christ and still be a Christian?

[Town Heretic]

Can a cat know it's a cat if the cat doesn't know it's creator, Jesus, was God?

No. A cat rarely owns a good dictionary and second-hand ones are typically dog eared. lain:

And GR, I know you love the old post count, but could you stop with the several GR posts in a row and maybe wait on someone to answer you at least? It's a half step away from Joey Arnolding, for Pete's sake. :mmph:

 

[godrulz]

No. A cat rarely owns a good dictionary and second-hand ones are typically dog eared. lain:

And GR, I know you love the old post count, but could you stop with the several GR posts in a row and maybe wait on someone to answer you at least? It's a half step away from Joey Arnolding, for Pete's sake. :mmph:

I could care less about post counts. I caught up on pages of this thread all at once, so that is why sometimes there are several in a row answering different people. Some may not come back for days, so why wait for the thread to advance beyond hope of catching up or making relevant comments to individuals? To each his own...

 

[Town Heretic]

I'll appreciate the warning. :e4e:

It seemed reasonable enough.

Again, if you don't want to call it Christianity, fine, but to say it's not a religion? They are still seeking after God. :rain:

But not the God of their designation--which was the point of my illustration.

 

[grit]

Can a person reject the divinity of Christ and still be a Christian?

I’m not around all that much at TOL, but I see some old friends in the thread and thought it important to respond. For what it’s worth I tend to agree doctrinally with posters like Nang, AMR, and nicholsmom, but while I greatly appreciate the intent in answering a solid “no” on the doctrine of this issue, that if one denies Christ’s divinity one in essence denies who Christ is (“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven”, Matt. 10:33; cf. also Matt. 24:5; Jn. 6:36, 51; 1 Jn. 2:22; 4:3; 2 Jn. 1:7), one needs to be careful with what the OP question is actually asking. There is wisdom in both – right doctrine and right submission to clear understanding between folk, and especially to God.

With both these in mind, I’m rather inclined to qualify a hesitant “yes” to the TOL question of topic. One cannot deny the Christ and be a Christian, but there’s much more at stake in the breadth of the question than simply that. One must consider the variety of definition in what terms like reject and Christian mean and how they’re used (which indeed is what the TOL Topic solicits).

Take Christian for example. James tells us even daemons believe there is one God, and tremble (James 2:19), and they said to Jesus’ face, “What do you want with us, Son of God…?” (Matt. 8:29; cf. also Mk. 1:24; 5:7); but we don’t say daemons are Christians. Paul tells us in Romans that men, “who suppress the truth in unrighteousness” are due the penalty of their error, for they have denied “that which is known about God”, which “is evident within them; for God made it evident to them”. They, “exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator”. It’s often rightly offered that all people are without excuse in denying God (or so, even Jesus), for everyone knows God in the sense Paul affirms. But it is Paul who also says, “if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9). There is an acknowledged difference between following Christ as a Christian (knowing, confessing, believing, worshipping) and affirming (to not “reject”) that Jesus is, and that He is divine, that He is in fact even more than divine as God. It may rightly be said that everyone believes, in some sense, but all are not saved, or so worthy of the name Christian.

And are all to be denied a proper use of the name “Christian” who deny that Jesus is God? If it may be thought that some affirm Jesus as God (even to every tongue confessing such - Rom. 14:11; Phil. 2:11) and yet are not Christians, we may also give thought to those people who deny Jesus is God and yet are His followers. This denial, this rejection, sometimes is not in a refusal to lovingly submit to the Son, but of either an conscious ignorance or misunderstanding of perspective in yet affirming the One true God. Jesus initial twelve disciples, for example, did not initially have a thorough understanding of who He was, even though many of them left their nets to follow Him. Neither would I deny all infants and the mentally infirmed a place worthy of “Christian” simply because they seemingly don’t confess Jesus as God with their mouths or may even audibly deny Him in misunderstanding, not unlike a parrot made to say “Jesus is dead”.

Certainly God gives us a right and even a calling to gauge proper doctrine as found in Holy Scripture, to exercise caution in what is called by the name “Christian”; but it remains Christ’s right alone to ultimately acknowledge just who bears His name, and I think we all submit to this. I appreciate that this is what One Eyed Jack and some others answering “yes” are reiterating. Who am I to reject whom God receives, even if that person, like the overwhelming numbers of early Arian Christians, early church fathers debating the Godhead, or Jehovah’s Witnesses today affirm Christ’s payment for their sin and seek to follow the One true God. Are they Christians? Their doctrine may be wanting of Scriptural correction, even on such an important aspect as Jesus the Christ; and, yes, like others in the thread I’m hesitant to allow for any willful denial of Christ as God in qualifying for “Christian” status; but I must allow for the same exceptions as does God Himself.

Insofar as the question is openly phrased, I must offer a hesitant “yes”, with the understanding that God certainly values and honours right doctrine, and that it is God’s place to call and name His own.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

What way did they explain the Trinity?

This was around ten years ago, and I can't find the article right now, or I'd link to it.

Basically they explain how our tri-unity reflects God's tri-unity. We're composed of body, soul, and spirit. This would correspond to the Son (God's body), the Father (God's soul), and the Holy Spirit (God's spirit). This is just a brief overview -- it gets a lot deeper than that.

When I learned this, so many things just fell into place -- it was like a whole new view. The Trinity is something I had struggled with for a few years at that point, so I was really glad God led me there.

 

[oatmeal]

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Corinthians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

**May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Good,

Now we are getting somewhere.

Note the following:

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

the ONE God, the Father, creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible

right?

then:

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)

Some questions:

What does the word "and" mean to you?

What does the word "son" mean to you?

What does the word "father" mean to you?

What does the word "begotten" mean to you? Think carefully. What does that word mean? Does begotten mean always been in existence? Or does it mean that there was a starting point for the begottee?

Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)

The Father begat the son before all ages. If it is so, that the son is eternal, is there really a need to be "begot"?

Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)

What does "Light of Light" mean?

Which verse that you listed contains the phrase, "Light of Light"?

True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)

What does "True God of True God" mean?

Does that phrase, "True God of True God" appear in John 17:1-5?

Did Jesus Christ misspeak? Did Jesus Christ miss something there?

Did the originators of the N. creed get some revelation from God that overrules what Jesus Christ actually spoke?

What does the word "of" mean?

of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)

John 5:30 Was Jesus Christ one essence with the Father because he did the will of the Father instead of his own will?

Would Jesus been one essence with the Father if Jesus had done his own will?

Did Jesus Christ automatically do the will of the Father?

Or did Jesus Christ choose to do the will of the Father over his own will?

Why would JC choose to do the will of the Father over his own?

If JC was God, why wouldn't Jesus Christ's will be "good enough"?

Don't the Father and son and hg agree in one? I John 5:7-8?

Are they not all three in one and of the same essence?

Why the difference of wills?

Since the Father is greater, the will of the Father must be greater?

I thought they are co equal?

Or does that word "co equal" not fit in your definition of the trinity?

Why is the Father's will superior to the will of Jesus Christ?

That is probably enough questions for now.

Is God logical and consistent or not?

oatmeal

 

[oatmeal]

Finish it. Better make that Romans 10:8-13, and do not forget John 3:16, 14:6.

About Christ's divinity and confessing it to others, Matthew 10:32.​

oatmeal's answer to my one word "No" reply to the rejection of the divinity of Christ.​

Several.​

That you are.​

Psalmist,

I do not question your sincerity.

Let us search the scriptures.

Finish it. Better make that Romans 10:8-13, and do not forget John 3:16, 14:6.

Could you point out what it is in those passages that you provided that refutes Romans 10:9-10?

"confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead"

Is there any thing in those words that indicate that Jesus is God?

Are those two actions listed, confess and believe, not sufficient for salvation?

Why not?

What action did Romans 10:9 miss?

If there is some other action necessary, why hide it in some far removed scripture, instead of state it right here?

I Timothy 2:4, God wants all men to be saved. The simple way to get all men saved is to list the requirements simply and plainly in one spot, rather than scatter all the requirements through out all the books of scripture.

How would anyone know they met all the requirements for salvation if God does not make it plain and simple to know?

I John 5:13

What does that verse tell you? Does that verse tell you that God wants you to know that you have eternal life, (if you do have it)

How are we going to know if there is no way to know?

I John 5:11-12

How do we get the son into our life? How do we get started?

Why not Romans 10:9-10, why not get saved first.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Then concern ourselves with the works we are called to do once we are saved.

Ephesians 2:10

I Timothy 2:4 "and come unto the knowledge of the truth"

John 14:12

About Christ's divinity and confessing it to others, Matthew 10:32.

You have yet to show "Christ's divinity" that is not a given.

I Timothy 2:4-5

"the man Christ Jesus" it does not say, "the God Christ Jesus"

If you say well just because it does not say it here, does not make the divinity not true, then I say it does not say here that Jesus christ was an alien from Mars, therefore does that make Jesus Christ an alien from Mars? I think not.

You will have to do much than that.

oatmeal's answer to my one word "No" reply to the rejection of the divinity of Christ.

Yep

That you are.

I am OK with being bland oatmeal

Jesus christ claimed to be the eight course meal of life. Right?

Oops, no, he did not.

John 6:48

He said "I am that bread of life"

Not even the deli sandwich of life.

Not even the one dollar cheeseburger of life.

Not even the bread and butter of life.

Just the bread of life.

I am oatmeal.

I am not the oatmeal of life.

lumpy or smooth, hot or cold, raw or cooked, butter and brown sugar? plain? how do you want me?

oatmeal

plain and simple

"a natural laxative for the mind and body"

Try some oatmeal

 

[oatmeal]

Can a person reject the divinity of Christ and still be a Christian?

No. The core of Christian teaching is that Christ is God incarnate and that man approaches through that sacrifice, recognition, and grace. Remove this from your following of Christ and you have a philosophy, not a religion, a life model, but not salvation.

Are you aware of the only two things that God requires of a person to be saved?

Neither one of them teaches or alludes to a "divinity of Christ"

Read it for yourself in Romans 10:9-10

oatmeal

 

[oatmeal]

The Pauline use of 'Lord' is Deity. OT verses about YHWH are applied to Jesus by the Spirit in the Gospels, Romans, Philippians, Hebrews, etc. To confess Jesus as Lord is not to confess him as a lord or sir, but as YHWH.

godrulz,

The Pauline use of 'Lord' is Deity.

"Have you not read?"

I Corinthians 8:5

These "gods many" who are they?

Are they all

Deity.

These "lords many" who are they?

'Lord' is Deity.

Are they

Deity.

Does Peter count?

"have you not read?" I Peter 3:6

Let us go to scripture for answers, not the traditions of men.

oatmeal

 

[Only1God]

Jesus received worship in Scripture. This is not idolatry nor blasphemy because He is God, worthy of worship.

No where does the Bible show that Jesus received worship AS GOD. Trinitarians have created this delusion that the Bible forbids worship, per se, to be given to or accepted by anyone but God. But that's not Biblical. The word worship in the Bible means to pay homage to, to bow down in a sign of respect and honor. People of God have done this to kings, and have accepted this show of respect from others for themselves.
Daniel 2:46 shows Daniel accepting worship. 1 Chronicles 29:20 Shows David accepting worship. (Some translations use the term "worship" and others "paid homage." It's drawn from the same word in the original language).
Trinitarians will insist it was different with Jesus, but that is just their opinion. There is nothing in Scripture that tells us that he was accepting worship as God Himself.
Read Exodus 20:3-5. It forbids worshipping anything or anyone else as God, such as was done with idols. Ironically, this is precisely what the Trinitarians demand we do with Jesus. They demand we worship him as God, a clear violation of the first two commandments.

 

[Only1God]

Good,

Now we are getting somewhere.

Note the following:



the ONE God, the Father, creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible

right?

then:




Some questions:

What does the word "and" mean to you?

What does the word "son" mean to you?

What does the word "father" mean to you?

What does the word "begotten" mean to you? Think carefully. What does that word mean? Does begotten mean always been in existence? Or does it mean that there was a starting point for the begottee?



The Father begat the son before all ages. If it is so, that the son is eternal, is there really a need to be "begot"?




What does "Light of Light" mean?

Which verse that you listed contains the phrase, "Light of Light"?



What does "True God of True God" mean?

Does that phrase, "True God of True God" appear in John 17:1-5?

Did Jesus Christ misspeak? Did Jesus Christ miss something there?

Did the originators of the N. creed get some revelation from God that overrules what Jesus Christ actually spoke?

What does the word "of" mean?



John 5:30 Was Jesus Christ one essence with the Father because he did the will of the Father instead of his own will?

Would Jesus been one essence with the Father if Jesus had done his own will?

Did Jesus Christ automatically do the will of the Father?

Or did Jesus Christ choose to do the will of the Father over his own will?

Why would JC choose to do the will of the Father over his own?

If JC was God, why wouldn't Jesus Christ's will be "good enough"?

Don't the Father and son and hg agree in one? I John 5:7-8?

Are they not all three in one and of the same essence?

Why the difference of wills?

Since the Father is greater, the will of the Father must be greater?

I thought they are co equal?

Or does that word "co equal" not fit in your definition of the trinity?

Why is the Father's will superior to the will of Jesus Christ?

That is probably enough questions for now.

Is God logical and consistent or not?

oatmeal

Excellent analysis. 100% Biblically consistent. God bless you for daring to speak the Truth as written in Scripture instead of caving into the precepts of men written years later, despite their name-calling and attempt at marginalization

 

[godrulz]

Are you aware of the only two things that God requires of a person to be saved?

Neither one of them teaches or alludes to a "divinity of Christ"

Read it for yourself in Romans 10:9-10

oatmeal

For Paul, 'Jesus is Lord' means Jesus is YHWH. This is based on the OT quotes about YHWH applied to Jesus. Paul was not saying to confess Jesus as any old lord or sir. He was saying to confess Jesus as Lord God, the King of kings, the Lord of lords. To submit to Jesus is to receive God Himself in Christ. Other verses identify Lord as God when applied to Jesus. Gk. Kurios/theos is used of God the Father and God the Son. It can also be used of false gods or lesser lords, so context is the issue.

Using your logic, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, etc. confess Jesus as generic lord and are saved despite diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive Christologies/soteriologies. 2 Cor. 11:4 is clear that there are counterfeit Christs who are not LORD. Jesus rejected false Christs. Using your logic, the title trumps the identity and reality of who/what it is applied to (hence Allah is the same God as YHWH? Nope!).

 

[godrulz]

No where does the Bible show that Jesus received worship AS GOD. Trinitarians have created this delusion that the Bible forbids worship, per se, to be given to or accepted by anyone but God. But that's not Biblical. The word worship in the Bible means to pay homage to, to bow down in a sign of respect and honor. People of God have done this to kings, and have accepted this show of respect from others for themselves.
Daniel 2:46 shows Daniel accepting worship. 1 Chronicles 29:20 Shows David accepting worship. (Some translations use the term "worship" and others "paid homage." It's drawn from the same word in the original language).
Trinitarians will insist it was different with Jesus, but that is just their opinion. There is nothing in Scripture that tells us that he was accepting worship as God Himself.
Read Exodus 20:3-5. It forbids worshipping anything or anyone else as God, such as was done with idols. Ironically, this is precisely what the Trinitarians demand we do with Jesus. They demand we worship him as God, a clear violation of the first two commandments.

The same word about worship to God the Father is applied to Jesus. In Rev. 4-5, Jesus is worshipped co-equally with the Father. Heb. 1:6 has God Himself commanding angels to worship Jesus (the LXX verse in Deut. originally applied to YHWH, but is now applied to Jesus who is also YHWH). Jesus received worship (Jn. 20:28 there is only one true God for Jews; same phrase in LXX Psalms is used of YHWH), not just homage or obeisance (JW nonsense).

 

[godrulz]

godrulz,



"Have you not read?"

I Corinthians 8:5

These "gods many" who are they?

Are they all

These "lords many" who are they?



Are they

Does Peter count?

"have you not read?" I Peter 3:6

Let us go to scripture for answers, not the traditions of men.

oatmeal

I Cor. 8 contrasts true God with false gods/idols (cf. Gal. 4:8; Isaiah). Jesus is called God (has names, titles, attributes of God).

Is Jesus the one true God or a false god?!

 

[Cruciform]

Are you aware of the only two things that God requires of a person to be saved?

oatmeal's basic error here is in assuming that the Bible is composed in the form of a systematic theology or compendium of discrete doctrines such that its contents can be used as a collection of didactic formulas to be applied to various theological questions---which, of course, it certainly is not.

Thus, it should be noted that the verse that oatmeal chose to extract and quote is hardly the only text in Scripture that touches on the subject of salvation or of Christ's divinity. It is not some sort of self-contained formula that exhaustively addresses the issue of salvation or the deity of Christ, as oatmeal seems to assume. His basic approach to biblical interpretation and application is simply reductionistic and, therefore, hopelessly erroneous.


Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[some other dude]

Isn't it interesting that He-With-The-Loose-Bowels rejects such an approach when it supports the concept of the trinity?

 

[some other dude]

For Paul, Jesus is Lord, means Jesus is YHWH. This is based on the OT quotes about YHWH applied to Jesus. Paul was not saying to confess Jesus as any old lord or sir. He was saying to confess Jesus as Lord God, the King of kings, the Lord of lords. To submit to Jesus is to receive God Himself in Christ. Other verses identify Lord as God when applied to Jesus. Gk. Kurios/theos is used of God the Father and God the Son. It can also be used of false gods or lesser lords, so context is the issue.

Using your logic, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, etc. confess Jesus as generic lord and are saved despite diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive Christologies/soteriologies. 2 Cor. 11:4 is clear that there are counterfeit Christs who are not LORD. Jesus rejected false Christs. Using your logic, the title trumps the identity and reality of who/what it is applied to (hence Allah is the same God as YHWH? Nope!).

Thanks for having the patience to actually bother with these tiresome idiots. I just tell them to get off my porch as I whistle for the dogs.

 

[kmoney]

It seemed reasonable enough.

But not the God of their designation--which was the point of my illustration.

It was a point irrelevant to mine. lain:

 

[Cruciform]

Isn't it interesting that He-With-The-Loose-Bowels rejects such an approach when it supports the concept of the trinity?

[FONT=Verdana"]>BAZINGA!<[/FONT]​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Seydlitz77]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 3rd, 2011 10:42 AM

toldailytopic: Can a person reject the divinity of Christ and still be a Christian?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

No way that's a game breaker. :nono: If Christ was not God He could not save us so I don't understand why "christians" who do not believe in His divinity really bother with the whole program. :idunno: