toldailytopic: Bomb in Oslo Norway. What should authorities do to keep the public saf

[Stripe]

This guy probably would not have been phased if the death penalty was his punishment.

Which is not even the anecdotal fallacy. You need to have a true story to use it as an anecdote in place of actual evidence.

 

[Todah]

If the anecdotal counts as evidence then my own would differ. Frankly I find the prospect of a lifetime behind bars more daunting than a swift death. Does that mean it's now a +1 for my own position?

I'm claiming as I do because having had many a debate on the DP prior to now, I've yet to see any evidence supplied that the DP is any more effective as a deterrent than in those places where its not actually used. If you can provide concrete evidence that supports your position then by all means I'd be interested in seeing it.

My own conjecture is that most people don't commit murder etc because they're morally opposed to it as oppose to a fear of getting caught as the primary motivator. For instance there's no way I could kill someone in premeditated cold blood for that very reason. Whether the DP was implemented where I lived or not would be entirely irrelevant.
:e4e:

Before a child develops a moral conscience of his own, he may or may not hit his little sister even though he has been told not to and that it is wrong to hit someone else, especially a "girl".

Often I did not hit my little sister, even though she deserved it because of what she did and said to me, only because I knew she would go crying to my father and say tommy hit me, and I knew that I would be spanked again.

So are you suggesting for those who have never developed your moral conscience we should eliminate punishment for them, since most of the rest of us do not need that as a motivator. Should my dad not have spanked me or sent me to my room {similar to Life imprisonment for a small child] and just waited for my moral conscience to develop, down the road. Or was it not part of that development.

Removing strict and swift punishment from people without a clear morality, only encourages violence, and delays development . Do you honestly not see that.

In fact, sometimes my sister did not even deserve to be hit, I see that only now, that I am an adult. Sometimes she actually was as innocent as she claimed to be.

Would you advocate a child saying to his father.. You spanked me last time and I hit her again anyways, no sense in spanking me this time?

There is a DP for murder, but hey I committed murder anyway, so what is the sense in carrying it out? Do you honestly acquiesce to that kind of logic?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Before a child develops a moral conscience of his own, he may or may not hit his little sister even though he has been told not to and that it is wrong to hit someone else, especially a "girl".

Yes, and until he understands why he's hardly morally accountable is he? I grew up with a big sister so I had a few scars....:chuckle:

Often I did not hit my little sister, even though she deserved it because of what she did and said to me, only because I knew she would go crying to my father and say tommy hit me, and I knew that I would be spanked again.

Hmm, how can you, as an adult now say she deserved to be hit?! No she didn't dude. You were kids for Pete's sake. lain:

So are you suggesting for those who have never developed your moral conscience we should eliminate punishment for them, since most of the rest of us do not need that as a motivator. Should my dad not have spanked me or sent me to my room {similar to Life imprisonment for a small child] and just waited for my moral conscience to develop, down the road. Or was it not part of that development.

Oh please. It's not the equivalent to 'life imprisonment' for a small child to be sent to his room. You really are over reaching on this. Frankly, it takes a darn sight more than spanking or the above to actually teach morality to a child or for him/her to recognize their actual actions and ramifications also. I was very very rarely spanked as a kid and taught just why actions have consequence in a way more constructive manner than a belt. Also I have never argued that there shouldn't be a penalty to pay for adult criminal behaviour so I don't know where you're pulling that from. Plenty of folk have "developed" a similar moral conscience so if the only reason you didn't actually go out and assault people etc was due to fear of consequence then I'm sorry to hear it.

Removing strict and swift punishment from people without a clear morality, only encourages violence, and delays development . Do you honestly not see that.

Spanking in itself doesn't teach anything dude. Punishment with reason does far more. You don't educate folk through a hand or a belt.

In fact, sometimes my sister did not even deserve to be hit, I see that only now, that I am an adult. Sometimes she actually was as innocent as she claimed to be.

She never deserved to be hit by you dude. She was your little sister. As an adult you should have no qualms admitting it. The fact that siblings often squabble and fight is by the by. It seems as though you still have issues on this....

Would you advocate a child saying to his father.. You spanked me last time and I hit her again anyways, no sense in spanking me this time?

Nope. I don't advocate spanking for its own sake anyway as there's better methods than purely physical punishment in order to educate and discipline IMO.

There is a DP for murder, but hey I committed murder anyway, so what is the sense in carrying it out? Do you honestly acquiesce to that kind of logic?

That wasn't even the argument I was making so it would be a bit hard to 'surrender' to something I've not even proposed to begin with.

I've asked you to provide verifiable sources that at least suggest that the DP is a powerful anti deterrent to violent crime. Still waiting.

:e4e:

 

[Granite]

It works for me. I would have committed many crimes during my life as an unbeliever and drunkard, yet it was the fear of imprisonment and -or execution that kept me from it.

So now I am your evidence that the death penalty has reduced the crime rate. I suspect that there are multitudes of others who could provide you with similar evidence.

Your own story isn't evidence of a thing except your changed life.

A zealot like this monster in Norway wouldn't be detered by capital punishment and given the rate of violent crime in this country it doesn't work as much of a deterrent anyway.

 

[some other dude]

Your own story isn't evidence of a thing except your changed life.

You're an idiot. Todah's story is evidence of a crime not committed due to fear of punishment.

A zealot like this monster in Norway wouldn't be detered by capital punishment

A bold statement. You have proof?

and given the rate of violent crime in this country it doesn't work as much of a deterrent anyway.

I was unaware that we had swift and sure capital punishment in this country.

How about if we look at a country that does. Singapore?

 

[chair]

Controlling terrorism while maintaining a liberal society is not easy. There are no simple easy solutions. it is a constant battle.

As far as death penalties go- i suggest interviewing a suicide bomber before coming to any conclusions.

 

[El DLo]

Based on the attack in Oslo, airports and public institutions should keep an open eye for white right-wing fundamentalists Christians. If they play video games, they're even more likely to be a threat. Let's just hope they don't play the discrimination card when it comes to profiling.

Fair is fair, right?:idunno:

 

[Town Heretic]

Your own story isn't evidence of a thing except your changed life.

And a supposition.

A zealot like this monster in Norway wouldn't be detered by capital punishment[/quote

Probably not, since he feels completely justified in his course of action. That and he's nuts, which you have to be to gun down scores of defenseless children.

and given the rate of violent crime in this country it doesn't work as much of a deterrent anyway.

That's because the majority of murders are crimes of passion and many of those involve drugs, further impairing judgment and making anything like cooler heads prevailing a statistical anomaly.

 

[Todah]

I don't know of any studies because there are so few places that have a swift DP. Certainly not the United States. Singapore is certainly a good example as someone pointed out. It is my and others contention that only swift justice is an effective deterrent. "Justice delayed is justice denied."

Your argument seems to be since there are DP's of one type or another in place, and murderers say by there words or actions, your DP did not deter me.....therefore DP's do not deter murderers.

My counterargument is that you are asking the wrong people. How many people did not commit murder because of a DP in place? Multitudes I suspect, and no there are no statistics, just common sense, to me and others.

As someone else pointed out, in the heat of the moment, or under altered states of conciousness, we often do not think of consequences. That is also common sense.

Most murders who are guilty, try to escape the DP, that should make you wonder why!

BTW, you missed some good humor in my post, about me and my sister. You also missed some good points. Whether or not you agree with spanking, I was spanked as a child, and it did oftentimes deter me.

Since you disagree with spanking, and the DP, you want statistical studies that show if either one really deter. I again restate, they worked for me, and I believe for multitudes of others.

I don't think you or I, will get a show of hands from people who almost murdered, but were deterred. Therefore, I don't think that you can prove your point that the swift application of a DP for murderers is not a deterrent. It is simply common sense.

I do agree with you ,that grown adults, who have a developed moral conscience whether derived from sound teaching, or sound discipline, do not need a DP to convince them not to murder.

It works for those on the edge. This man from Norway was way over the edge, just as most gang members and drug addicts, and suicide bombers, already are.

 

[Granite]

Probably not, since he feels completely justified in his course of action. That and he's nuts, which you have to be to gun down scores of defenseless children.

Exactly. A zealot might even want to be executed to serve as a martyr for his cause.

That's because the majority of murders are crimes of passion and many of those involve drugs, further impairing judgment and making anything like cooler heads prevailing a statistical anomaly.

What kind of gang banger, wife beater, or sociopath stops to think: "Gee, might ride the lightning for this. Guess I won't succumb to the worst angels of my nature today."

Frankly, I don't care if capital punishment works as a deterrent or not, but it seems apparent that this argument doesn't hold much water.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I don't know of any studies because there are so few places that have a swift DP. Certainly not the United States. Singapore is certainly a good example as someone pointed out. It is my and others contention that only swift justice is an effective deterrent. "Justice delayed is justice denied."

Your argument seems to be since there are DP's of one type or another in place, and murderers say by there words or actions, your DP did not deter me.....therefore DP's do not deter murderers.

My counterargument is that you are asking the wrong people. How many people did not commit murder because of a DP in place? Multitudes I suspect, and no there are no statistics, just common sense, to me and others.

As someone else pointed out, in the heat of the moment, or under altered states of conciousness, we often do not think of consequences. That is also common sense.

Most murders who are guilty, try to escape the DP, that should make you wonder why!

BTW, you missed some good humor in my post, about me and my sister. You also missed some good points. Whether or not you agree with spanking, I was spanked as a child, and it did oftentimes deter me.

Since you disagree with spanking, and the DP, you want statistical studies that show if either one really deter. I again restate, they worked for me, and I believe for multitudes of others.

I don't think you or I, will get a show of hands from people who almost murdered, but were deterred. Therefore, I don't think that you can prove your point that the swift application of a DP for murderers is not a deterrent. It is simply common sense.

I do agree with you ,that grown adults, who have a developed moral conscience whether derived from sound teaching, or sound discipline, do not need a DP to convince them not to murder.

It works for those on the edge. This man from Norway was way over the edge, just as most gang members and drug addicts, and suicide bombers, already are.

Until the legal system is shaken up I wouldn't support 'swift justice' anyway. There needs to be time for an appeals process. The sad fact is that there's plenty who are wrongfully convicted and executing the innocent isn't justice. I would only support it when guilt has been established beyond the merest shadow of doubt.

As to the rest we're likely swapping the anecdotal and are reaching an impasse as we'll not agree on this.

:e4e:

 

[Stripe]

What kind of gang banger, wife beater, or sociopath stops to think: "Gee, might ride the lightning for this. Guess I won't succumb to the worst angels of my nature today."

Typical Granite. Stupid to the core.

It's a deterrent before people turn into sociopaths.

Granite is a hypocrite and a coward.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Typical Granite. Stupid to the core.

It's a deterrent before people turn into sociopaths.

Granite is a hypocrite and a coward.

And your constant whining about Granite is getting boring. Get over it.

:yawn:

 

[Granite]

And your constant whining about Granite is getting boring. Get over it.

:yawn:

No kidding. He and sod follow me around like a couple of ankle dogs.

It's also worth pointing out to this numbskull that he doesn't appear to understood anti-social personalities at all, so his comments just made him look like an even bigger buffoon than usual. Which takes some doing.

 

[some other dude]

No kidding. He and sod follow me around like a couple of ankle dogs.

I've always been fascinated by bizarre behavior. I find your posts as compelling as those of Letsargue, Pan, eemee, Barbie and the rest of those here who lack rationality and rely on emotion.

Think of yourself as the dog-faced woman in the freak show that is TOL.

 

[Stripe]

Granite is a liar. It is he who followed me into the thread and mocked my wife. Granite is a big girl's blouse. He reckons himself too high for some yet must let all and sundry know how vigilant he is at ignoring them.

A hypocrite and a coward. Maybe one of these days he'll fight his own battles instead of letting his plebeians do it for him.

 

[Rusha]

This guy probably would not have been phased if the death penalty was his punishment.

IMO, I don't see the DP as a deterrent but rather as a punishment and a way to keep society safe from THAT particular offender. Dead men and women do NOT reoffend.

 

[Stripe]

Beats being obliged to give the man a soapbox, food and accommodation then letting him go free. :thumb:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Granite is a liar. It is he who followed me into the thread and mocked my wife. Granite is a big girl's blouse. He reckons himself too high for some yet must let all and sundry know how vigilant he is at ignoring them.

A hypocrite and a coward. Maybe one of these days he'll fight his own battles instead of letting his plebeians do it for him.

Where did Granite mock your wife? It took you a year to finally apologize for your asinine remarks regarding a certain event in my family if you recall as red77 so grow up and stop being such a flaming hypocrite. Take your own advice and "man up" dude, else continue with your poxy whining.

lain:

 

[fool]

I'm not even sure where Norway is.
You got Sweden, Norway and Finland and their all like long and skinny and running north to south and in a package there east of England and if you gave me a blank map with the outlines it would be a wag to label them.
Minnesota has a bunch of blond people and a bunch of Muslims and there's no dead 90+ people there.
There's every kind of people in Detroit, no problems, other than the usual stuff.
As a matter of fact we got tons of Muslims in Detroit and no problems, so I guess my question is this.
How's it going over there in Europe with that?