toldailytopic: Are the 6 days of creation in the book of Genesis a literal 6 days?

[Stripe]

The Hebrew creation myths were structured as POETRY, and passed down ORALLY.

Can someone please explain why poetry and oral tradition (not that the bible was ever solely an oral tradition) cannot be a description of historical events?

The evolutionists always jump to this canard and always fail to give any reason why the style of writing has any impact on the historicity.

Certainly we can point to plenty of other places in the bible where the same styles are used to describe real events.

The writing style (once someone finally wrote them down after who knows how many centuries) is more in keeping with the folklore traditions of Native American tribes ("this is why things are the way they are") than with any kind of factual accounts ever.

Because you say so, right?

And it's easy to find evidence against the idea that these were ever solely oral traditions.

Treating a myth as if it were a factual account, and making it an excuse to have shouting matches, just screams to the rest of the world that Christianity is trapped in the past, a relic from a barbaric age instead of a path to freedom from the barbaric impulses which plague all of humanity through our animalistic instincts.

:AMR:

Did you have anything sensible to post?

"Wherever the poetry of myth is interpreted as biography, history, or science, it is killed."-Joseph Campbell

Assuming the truth of your idea is irrational. Try to support your ideas with actual reasons. :up:

 

[Stripe]

...saying that if we don't believe in a literal six days casts doubt on the rest of the Bible is a red herring.

Utterly untrue.

The rest of the bible treats Genesis as historical fact. In the numerous references to Genesis there is never given a reason to doubt its historicity.

If we are suddenly to change the meaning of all those references because of the influence of evolutionary ideas, there are a great deal of teachings from Moses to Jesus to Peter and Paul that lose all relevance.

You cut off Genesis in order to incorporate evolution and you lose great sequences of teaching.

I believe he was speaking metaphorically to bronze age sheep herder named Moses who had no concept of numbers beyond a large herd or of space and galaxies and stars.

And you just make this up. There is no good reason to accept your story over the clear teaching of the bible.

Right now, it looks like God took His time creating the universe.

Only if you're cowed by evolutionary dogma. Reading the bible, there is absolutely no way to ever get the idea that six days meant anything but six days.

He created it in the order that He described it to Moses which is remarkably consistent with what the Big Bang Theory would predict.

:rotfl: Never read the bible, have you? Water divided by a firmament before stars? Plants before the Sun and Moon? There is no chance of marrying big bang and evolution with the bible's account.

Believing that creation took billions of years in no way threatens my belief that God was the one creating.

:yawn:

Irrelevant. Try to provide good reasons for what you believe rather than trying to cut off the discussion.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Utterly untrue.

The rest of the bible treats Genesis as historical fact. In the numerous references to Genesis there is never given a reason to doubt its historicity.

If we are suddenly to change the meaning of all those references because of the influence of evolutionary ideas, there are a great deal of teachings from Moses to Jesus to Peter and Paul that lose all relevance.

You cut off Genesis in order to incorporate evolution and you lose great sequences of teaching.

And you just make this up. There is no good reason to accept your story ofver the clear teaching of the bible.

Only if you're cowed by evolutionary dogma. Reading the bible, there is absolutely no way to ever get the idea that six days meant anything but six days.

:rotfl: Never read the bible, have you? Water divided by a firmament before stars? Plants before the Sun and Moon? There is no chance of marrying big bang and evolution with the bible's account.

:yawn:

Irrelevant. Try to provide good reasons for what you believe rather than trying to cut off the discussion.

I provided sufficient reasons. That you do not agree with them is of little concern.

We had CU-Boulder biology professor teach a 16 week class once at our church. He showed how the predictions made by the Big Bang regarding planetary formation would exactly mach the order of creation as presented in Genesis. It was fascinating.

 

[steko]

This.

Ignoring scientific reality, literary context, literary genre, cultural context, and historical context isn't the best witnessing technique.

The Hebrew creation myths were structured as POETRY, and passed down ORALLY.
The writing style (once someone finally wrote them down after who knows how many centuries) is more in keeping with the folklore traditions of Native American tribes ("this is why things are the way they are") than with any kind of factual accounts ever.

Treating a myth as if it were a factual account, and making it an excuse to have shouting matches, just screams to the rest of the world that Christianity is trapped in the past, a relic from a barbaric age instead of a path to freedom from the barbaric impulses which plague all of humanity through our animalistic instincts.

"Wherever the poetry of myth is interpreted as biography, history, or science, it is killed."
-Joseph Campbell

Joseph Campbell is a myth.

 

[Stripe]

I provided sufficient reasons.

:rotfl: Your opinion that Moses couldn't count past a few thousand?

Yeah, good one. :darwinsm:

That you do not agree with them is of little concern.

Of course you don't care about rationally defending your ideas. As long as there is no challenge in your eyes to your precious evolution, you are content.

We had CU-Boulder biology professor teach a 16 week class once at our church. He showed how the predictions made by the Big Bang regarding planetary formation would exactly mach the order of creation as presented in Genesis. It was fascinating.

Wow.

I had a cat that liked to eat peas.

 

[CabinetMaker]

:rotfl: Your opinion that Moses couldn't count past a few thousand?

Yeah, good one. :darwinsm:

Of course you don't care about rationally defending your ideas. As long as there is no challenge in your eyes to your precious evolution, you are content.

I care not to defend them to you. Your history on this subject predicts that discussing these things with you, while entertaining, is generally a waste of time.

Wow.

I had a cat that liked to eat peas.

Thank you for proving my point about discussing actual facts and ideas with you. Good day.

 

[Tambora]

toldailytopic: Are the 6 days of creation in the book of Genesis a literal 6 days?

Literal historical.

Can someone please explain why poetry and oral tradition (not that the bible was ever solely an oral tradition) cannot be a description of historical events?

Nope. Because one can certainly use poetic language to describe a literal thing, person, or historical event.

Certainly we can point to plenty of other places in the bible where the same styles are used to describe real events.

Exactly.

 

[Stripe]

I care not to defend them to you. Your history on this subject predicts that discussing these things with you, while entertaining, is generally a waste of time.

Feel free to not talk to me then. :wave2:

 

[Nick M]

I believe he was speaking metaphorically

Ok, so what is the metaphor? I don't think you know what that word means, or you are intentionally being deceptive. The evening and the morning were the first day. I got it. Jesus didn't really die for your sins. That is a metaphor.

to bronze age sheep herder named Moses who had no concept of numbers beyond a large herd or of space and galaxies and stars.

He was a hell of a lot smarter than you. Or me. Or the Phy and Rocketman. You egotistical fool. The world is getting dumber.

I believe that we were created in God's image and as such, we have the capacity to understand God's creation.

Unless he tells you six days, then you don't know what that means.

Science does this. It observes what God created and learns the rules God laid down for creation to follow.

Yeah, and? That has nothing to do with what six days means, or the evening and the morning were the first day.

Right now, it looks like God took His time creating the universe.

No, it doesn't. What is your evidence? You really must be stupid. You should ask for your money back on that EE. He told you what he did, and you claim you can't see it. He said he and his creation are obvious, and you are without excuse.

You are not saved. But you already know that in your heart. You have been told here many times already. I know your heart by the evil that pours from your mouth.

 

[Stripe]

Nope. Because one can certainly use poetic language to describe a literal thing, person, or historical event.

Yep.

Reminds me of something. :chuckle:
Watch this:

Genesis 1 is a POEM.
You wouldn't try to convince someone that The Raven (Poe) or Auspex (James Lowell) are literal accounts of events.

Or The Charge of the Light Brigade.

Buzzword seemed to disappear after that. :chuckle:

 

[resurrected]

... bronze age sheep herder named Moses who had no concept of numbers beyond a large herd ...

you don't know much about Moses, do you? :freak:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Ok, so what is the metaphor? I don't think you know what that word means, or you are intentionally being deceptive. The evening and the morning were the first day. I got it. Jesus didn't really die for your sins. That is a metaphor.

No, Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead for my salvation. Six day or six billion years does not change this.

He was a hell of a lot smarter than you. Or me. Or the Phy and Rocketman. You egotistical fool. The world is getting dumber.

I never said he wasn't smart, I said he was ignorant of some things. Just as you and I are.

Unless he tells you six days, then you don't know what that means.

As I said I believe it to be allegorical. That is the word I should have used in the first place. Sorry, my bad,

Yeah, and? That has nothing to do with what six days means, or the evening and the morning were the first day.

The observation that science makes currently supports and old earth view of creation. That was my point.

No, it doesn't. What is your evidence? You really must be stupid. You should ask for your money back on that EE. He told you what he did, and you claim you can't see it. He said he and his creation are obvious, and you are without excuse.

I seem to recall saying that I do believe that God created all and is sovereign over all. I don't need an excuse.

You are not saved. But you already know that in your heart. You have been told here many times already. I know your heart by the evil that pours from your mouth.

My state of salvation is not subject to your judgement. I have professed with my mouth that I believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and I am saved. My beliefs on an old versus new earth play no part in my salvation.

 

[Zeke]

Fear keeps the exploration of other facts outside the scripture from being excepted by the literalist, the other possible factors are taught to the converts as being from the devil or pagan myths, yet facts supporting the historical claims of the scripture are being found to be unreliable.

The Davidic and Solomons kingdom can't be supported by the data, and should cause any rational mind to ask why! all other kings and kingdoms with such claims of riches and famous explots can be found but the biblical storyline is silent for the most part.


The statist who is also a religionist will defend the cause no matter the facts, and will hide behind some illusions of moral high ground, or plea that the words in scripture must be followed at all cost, even though facts and claims stated in the scripture about their Gods thinking and ways as being unknowable goes in one ear and out the other.

That moral highground quickly turns to eternal hell for all who disagree, with the other favorite mantra our God loves you just submit your mind and everything will be heavenly!! RUN away is my advice.

 

[CabinetMaker]

you don't know much about Moses, do you? :freak:

I know what the Bible says about him. What is your point?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Fear keeps the exploration of other facts outside the scripture from being excepted by the literalist, the other possible factors are taught to the converts as being from the devil or pagan myths, yet facts supporting the historical claims of the scripture are being found to be unreliable.

The Davidic and Solomons kingdom can't be supported by the data, and should cause any rational mind to ask why! all other kings and kingdoms with such claims of riches and famous explots can be found but the biblical storyline is silent for the most part.


The statist who is also a religionist will defend the cause no matter the facts, and will hide behind some illusions of moral high ground, or plea that the words in scripture must be followed at all cost, even though facts and claims stated in the scripture about their Gods thinking and ways as being unknowable goes in one ear and out the other.

That moral highground quickly turns to eternal hell for all who disagree, with the other favorite mantra our God loves you just submit your mind and everything will be heavenly!! RUN away is my advice.

I have long puzzeled over the discrepancies between the history found in scripture and in the secular world. It would seem that there is very little secular support for scriptural history. I have come to believe that God actually planed it this way. People have long claimed that they cannot believe in that which has no solid proof so they reject God. If the secular history and the biblical history matched that would lend credence to proof of God's existence. The reason that I believe God has carefully erased His fingerprints from history is that knowledge does not save, faith saves. God asks us to have faith in Him, to trust in Him when there is no proof of His existence. God is not found in history, He reveals Himself to us in out hearts.

 

[Stripe]

Ok, so what is the metaphor?

An excellent point. Evolutionists are always insisting on metaphor or allegory or poetry, but that stuff has meaning tied up in its details. There are numerous details in the creation account. What do all these details mean if they do not mean what they plainly say:

Genesis 1

• The earth was without form, and void.
• Darkness was on the face of the deep.
• The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
• God divided the light from the darkness.
• God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament.
• God called the firmament Heaven.
• The waters under the heavens .. gathered together into one place
• God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas.
• the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind.
• God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
• God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind.
• God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.
• God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind.
• God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
• God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
• God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

If the evolutionists could just pick one of those and tell us what the metaphor means and why it doesn't mean what it plainly says they might be able to show good reason for their declarations.

Typically though they just run and hide.

 

[Stripe]

you don't know much about Moses, do you? :freak:

Didn't he conduct a census of the entire Hebrew population? :chuckle:

 

[Sherman]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 28th, 2013 06:00 AM

toldailytopic: Are the 6 days of creation in the book of Genesis a literal 6 days?

Yes. Lets take a look at some verses in Genesis 1:

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Now does an evening and a morning take a million years?

6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

Here we go again with an evening and a morning again. It obviously isn't a period of time. It's a literal day. You either have to take God at His word or accept it as an allegory. I take the former. Genesis is a historic narrative. Not an allegory.

 

[Stripe]

I believe God has carefully erased His fingerprints from history

Unfortunately Romans says the exact opposite:

Romans 1
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.​

Including the prophecy about the rise of evolutionists.

And Psalms:

Psalm 19
The Perfect Revelation of the Lord
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.​

 

[CabinetMaker]

Unfortunately Romans says the exact opposite:

Romans 1
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.​

Including the prophecy about the rise of evolutionists.

And Psalms:

Psalm 19
The Perfect Revelation of the Lord
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.​

Got an Ark? How about an Arc?