toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Skavau]

That is the bottom-line gripe of the ungodly . . .

Or people who have even a basic understanding of morality and a basic comprehension of empathy.

If God chose not to save all sinners, He should not have created men at all.

Does not follow. We are only sinners according to most Christian doctrine because we are labelled them. Or because we are imperfect, or in a fallen world, or tainted by the fall or some other gibberish explanation. There's no reason why God could not consider us sinners or not make us with the inherent punishment for being sinners.

Such is the degree of enmity anger revealed against God by the majority of His creatures . . . and they wonder why God declares them accursed souls fit only for destruction!

You have the order backwards. I am an anti-theist because God is apparently in favour of eternal torment. Not the other way around.

Not to mention considering how you describe God I have every right to view him with contempt and anger.

They hate God for creating them and not saving all of them, . . . instead of praising God for saving any sinners at all.

True, in part. I'm not servile, masochistic and opportunistic enough to praise God for saving a tiny fraction of the billions he will merrily let fry.

Such is the condition of the unregenerated human heart and mind:

Then I am proud to be 'unregenerate'. You read like the Scourge from Warcraft.

 

[Nang]

Why yes of course it is Nang, because to object to the eternal suffering of other people is always a 'gripe' until one becomes "regenerated" isn't it....?

Godly men respond to these truths by confessing their sins and admitting that God would be right to send them to hell for their former unbelief and corruptions.

But you do not react to the gospel in this way, do you?

You react with just more hatred and anger against God, rather than in a spirit of contrition.

Which only reveals you will only receive what you deserve, if God does not change your heart attitude.

I pray He will show you grace to believe and repent . . .

Nang

 

[some other dude]

I pray He will show you grace to believe and repent . . .

Nang

Amen to that Nang!

 

[Nang]

Then I am proud to be 'unregenerate'.

It is obvious . . . you prove the reality of the curse of enmity carried by mankind, that manifests in hatred against God and against His spiritual seed.

You read like the Scourge from Warcraft.

No, I proclaim the Gospel of Grace.

You read like a willing, unbelieving, scourge from hell.

I will pray God will change your heart attitude and mind, with the power of His forgiving grace . . . for that is your only hope in this world!

Nang

 

[Skavau]

Godly men respond to these truths by confessing their sins and admitting that God would be right to send them to hell for their former unbelief and corruptions.

You say Godly, I say servile masochists blinded by fear and powered on by the hope of redemption. You have not advanced any argument for why God would be right to permanently torture people purely for what they think and for their own imperfections.

But you do not react to the gospel in this way, do you?

I don't.

You react with just more hatred and anger against God, rather than in a spirit of contrition.

Aye. Righteous anger.

Which only reveals you will only receive what you deserve, if God does not change your heart attitude.

No argument advanced for why we deserve eternal torment.

 

[Nang]

No argument advanced for why we deserve eternal torment.

The original sin of Adam, who represent humanity as federal head. Romans 5:12

Plus, the sins you have committed throughout your life.

More than enough to convict you before Holy God on that Day.

Nang

 

[Skavau]

The original sin of Adam, who represent humanity as federal head. Romans 5:12

I am not bound by any acts that Adam may or may not committed. I am not going to be told that I deserve to inherent the taint that he imposed upon himself. Ancestral guilt is totalitarian and evil.

Additionally, even if it was true I would not deserve eternal torment for it.

Plus, the sins you have committed throughout your life.

None of which deserve eternal torment. Nor all of them collectively.

More than enough to convict you before Holy God.

Nang

Take another swing for your supernatural tyrant.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Godly men respond to these truths by confessing their sins and admitting that God would be right to send them to hell for their former unbelief and corruptions.

But you do not react to the gospel in this way, do you?

You react with just more hatred and anger against God, rather than in a spirit of contrition.

Which only reveals you will only receive what you deserve, if God does not change your heart attitude.

I pray He will show you grace to believe and repent . . .

Nang

According to you I could only 'respond' in any such manner if I've been preordained to be 'regenerated' to believe such anyway.

As much as it may behoove you to claim I have anger and hate against God I don't actually, but rather doctrines such as yours that lack anything related to love, empathy and compassion. Legalism and blind adherence to dogma often tends to dispense with those I find 'funnily' enough....

God knows I've got plenty of faults but abandoning any sense of understanding or empathy are not ones I'm willing to add to that list Nang. To embrace your doctrine would ironically be the height of selfishness....

lain:

 

[Nang]

I am not bound by any acts that Adam may or may not committed.

This is pure denial of your inherent sinfulness.

There is no way you can consider yourself to be sinless, is there?

If you have acted once, in any way, less than as holy as Jesus Christ in the flesh, you prove that you have inherited the corruption of the first Adam, and do not possess the perfection of the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

even if it was true I would not deserve eternal torment for it.

Well, you are not the Judge of what your sins deserve, are you? You are not Creator God who rules over His creatures, are you. You are just another being made of dust, who cannot possibly live up to the holy demands of holy God . . . outside and apart from exhibiting faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

You cannot hide your head in the sand.

You are an imperfect sinner, undeserving and unfit to live in the presence of Holy God, unless He grants you grace and salvation through the moral perfections worked by His Son.

I pray that God might reveal this to you, and change your heart to love and praise Him for saving your soul from hellfire.

Nang

 

[Skavau]

This is pure denial of your inherent sinfulness.

It isn't a denial, it is an assertion. I do not accept whether true or not that I am bound by the actions of Adam.

There is no way you can consider yourself to be sinless, is there?

I'm an atheist. I don't accept the notion of 'sin'. If you are using sin though to mean imperfect, or have made mistakes then of course I have made them. I would wager though that some of the things you consider 'sinful' I do not.

If you have acted once, in any way, less than as holy as Jesus Christ in the flesh, you prove that you have inherited the corruption of the first Adam, and do not possess the perfection of the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

Then that wouldn't be my fault. The corruption would have been imposed upon me.

Well, you are not the Judge of what your sins deserve, are you?

Perhaps not. However no judge is allowed to act how he likes. We do not consider the judges of North Korea and Iran as justicars to look up to and similarly when you speak of a God that insists upon eternal torment for those who are imperfect then you speak of an obviously immoral and corrupt judge.

You are not Creator God who rules over His creatures, are you. You are just another being made of dust, who cannot possibly live up to the holy demands of holy God . . . outside and apart from exhibiting faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

The demands of this "Creator God" that you pimp for are absurd, immoral and something that is impossible for me to do.

You cannot hide your head in the sand.

I'm not. If you look I am responding to what you say.

You are an imperfect sinner, undeserving and unfit to live in the presence of Holy God, unless He grants you grace and salvation through the moral perfections worked by His Son.

You're repeating things I am entirely aware of. I know you believe that. I question it as it is obviously immoral.

You depict life as a massive proving ground with a lot of friendly fire.

 

[Arthur Brain]

This is pure denial of your inherent sinfulness.

There is no way you can consider yourself to be sinless, is there?

If you have acted once, in any way, less than as holy as Jesus Christ in the flesh, you prove that you have inherited the corruption of the first Adam, and do not possess the perfection of the last Adam, Jesus Christ.



Well, you are not the Judge of what your sins deserve, are you? You are not Creator God who rules over His creatures, are you. You are just another being made of dust, who cannot possibly live up to the holy demands of holy God . . . outside and apart from exhibiting faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

You cannot hide your head in the sand.

You are an imperfect sinner, undeserving and unfit to live in the presence of Holy God, unless He grants you grace and salvation through the moral perfections worked by His Son.

I pray that God might reveal this to you, and change your heart to love and praise Him for saving your soul from hellfire.

Nang

Your prayers will make what difference exactly? Everyone's already been picked from the outset so why even bother? Hey, lets join Johnathan Edwards in his life affirming preaching about how those spared will rejoice in the suffering of *loved ones* who weren't picked eh? :roses:

lain:

 

[Krsto]

You have the order backwards. I am an anti-theist because God is apparently in favour of eternal torment. Not the other way around.

Nang - this is the truth, but you will never see it and how your own theology has contributed to his state of mind but will rather, do to your heretical theology, figure God has not given him the gift of faith so he deserves the eternal torment you think he is going to get.

In other words Nang, your false doctrine is a stumbling block and causing more people to end up in hell than you seem able to recognize.

Some day you may awake in a cold sweat to the reality of what you are doing but so far you are in complete and utter deception, thinking somehow you are preaching the "Gospel of grace" while actually preventing grace.

Like Saul of Tarsus you have a zeal for God but it is not according to truth.

 

[Krsto]

Your prayers will make what difference exactly? Everyone's already been picked from the outset so why even bother? Hey, lets join Johnathan Edwards in his life affirming preaching about how those spared will rejoice in the suffering of *loved ones* who weren't picked eh? :roses:

lain:

Her prayers will make her look like the Pharisees who wore broad phalacteries and prayed publicly in the town square so everyone could see how righteous they are when in reality everyone could see they were full of dead men's bones.

Was that the difference you were hoping for?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Nang - this is the truth, but you will never see it and how your own theology has contributed to his state of mind but will rather, do to your heretical theology, figure God has not given him the gift of faith so he deserves the eternal torment you think he is going to get.

In other words Nang, your false doctrine is a stumbling block and causing more people to end up in hell than you seem able to recognize.

Some day you may awake in a cold sweat to the reality of what you are doing but so far you are in complete and utter deception, thinking somehow you are preaching the "Gospel of grace" while actually preventing grace.

Like Saul of Tarsus you have a zeal for God but it is not according to truth.

Unfortunately Krsto, you preach a message where those who aren't developed enough to understand the differentiation between any of these messages for whatever reasons simply die and rot. That may be *preferable* to what Nang espouses as there's nowt that could be any worse, but it doesn't mean that your own preaching is actually "good news" either....

I find both of your positions objectionable. In Nang's case everyone is predetermined to a fate. In yours it's simply "bad luck" for those who don't get to understand what's even going on....

lain:

 

[Krsto]

Unfortunately Krsto, you preach a message where those who aren't developed enough to understand the differentiation between any of these messages for whatever reasons simply die and rot. That may be *preferable* to what Nang espouses as there's nowt that could be any worse, but it doesn't mean that your own preaching is actually "good news" either....

I find both of your positions objectionable. In Nang's case everyone is predetermined to a fate. In yours it's simply "bad luck" for those who don't get to understand what's even going on....

lain:

But in your theology both them and the wicked tyrant get the same joyous everlasting consequence?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Her prayers will make her look like the Pharisees who wore broad phalacteries and prayed publicly in the town square so everyone could see how righteous they are when in reality everyone could see they were full of dead men's bones.

Was that the difference you were hoping for?

Maybe so but what of those who are able to be educated, grow, develop & be eloquent enough to debate this stuff while the unfortunate die in ignorance/youth and are deemed to be damned to nothing anyway through sheer 'misfortune'? That's nothing to write home about either Krsto....

lain:

 

[Krsto]

Unfortunately Krsto, you preach a message where those who aren't developed enough to understand the differentiation between any of these messages for whatever reasons simply die and rot. That may be *preferable* to what Nang espouses as there's nowt that could be any worse, but it doesn't mean that your own preaching is actually "good news" either....

I find both of your positions objectionable. In Nang's case everyone is predetermined to a fate. In yours it's simply "bad luck" for those who don't get to understand what's even going on....

lain:

I could see God granting a pass to infants and the retarted but I can only speculate since about the only clue we have is Jesus saying, "Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for to such belongeth the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Arthur Brain]

But in your theology both them and the wicked tyrant get the same joyous everlasting consequence?

If everyone is reconciled to God then I guess so in time. What's wrong with that? You're hardly in a position to talk about 'wicked tyrants' at this juncture when you see nothing objectionable about a baby going to oblivion where a terrorist can gain everlasting life frankly....Your view has precious little scope

lain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

I could see God granting a pass to infants and the retarted but I can only speculate since about the only clue we have is Jesus saying, "Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for to such belongeth the kingdom of heaven."

Well surely that ties in more with love than just obliterating those so unfortunate to be afflicted with such premature death and disease?

 

[Krsto]

If everyone is reconciled to God then I guess so in time. What's wrong with that? You're hardly in a position to talk about 'wicked tyrants' at this juncture when you see nothing objectionable about a baby going to oblivion where a terrorist can gain everlasting life frankly....Your view has precious little scope

lain:

I don't think a terrorist can gain everlasting life. If he gets born again he won't be a terrorist any longer. For him to gain heaven along with an unrepentant terrorist does not seem fair but for him to gain heaven while an innocent child who never heard the Gospel simply ends his life in the grave does seem fair to me. A whole lot more fair than just plain life that God allows where good people die early and bad people live long enough to make it miserable for others.