TOL is for Dialogue!!!

[freelight]

what about reason and logic?

what about purpose and meaning?

What about them?

Reason, logic, purpose, meaning and values certainly have their place in religious discussion. I've always recognized that and expound on such freely. Now as to specifics concerning these, we'd have to be engaging a particular subject to RELATE such. I don't recall myself denying any aspect of the above.

Since we are having fun here in a shotgun manner (more or less),..I'm joining in on the fun, if that's permissible


In-joy!




paulie

 

[chrysostom]

What about them?

Reason, logic, purpose, meaning and values certainly have their place in religious discussion. I've always recognized that and expound on such freely. Now as to specifics concerning these, we'd have to be engaging a particular subject to RELATE such. I don't recall myself denying any aspect of the above.

Since we are having fun here in a shotgun manner (more or less),..I'm joining in on the fun, if that's permissible


In-joy!




paulie

let's start with purpose

what is the purpose of our existence here on earth?

 

[freelight]

purpose of existence...........

purpose of existence...........

let's start with purpose

what is the purpose of our existence here on earth?

Existence in this dimension appears to have the purpose of 'experiencing', 'learning', 'growth', 'evolution',....which is basically what CREATION is. All these dynamics are engaged within the movement of creation,...so as far as 'purpose' goes,...it is defined or qualified by what consciousness itself determines, in the process of experience, unfolding its innate potentials and possibilities. Meaning and value is derived thru experience....and is expanded in creation.

Portal post to creation/evolution here - see all links

2:2.3 The reactions of a changeless God, in the execution of his eternal purpose, may seem to vary in accordance with the changing attitude and the shifting minds of his created intelligences; that is, they may apparently and superficially vary; but underneath the surface and beneath all outward manifestations, there is still present the changeless purpose, the everlasting plan, of the eternal God.

2:7.12 The real purpose of all universe education is to effect the better co-ordination of the isolated child of the worlds with the larger realities of his expanding experience.

3:2.2 Within the bounds of that which is consistent with the divine nature, it is literally true that “with God all things are possible.” The long-drawn-out evolutionary processes of peoples, planets, and universes are under the perfect control of the universe creators and administrators and unfold in accordance with the eternal purpose of the Universal Father, proceeding in harmony and order and in keeping with the all-wise plan of God. There is only one lawgiver. He upholds the worlds in space and swings the universes around the endless circle of the eternal circuit. -UB

pj

 

[chrysostom]

Existence in this dimension appears to have the purpose of 'experiencing', 'learning', 'growth', 'evolution',....which is basically what CREATION is. All these dynamics are engaged within the movement of creation,...so as far as 'purpose' goes,...it is defined or qualified by what consciousness itself determines, in the process of experience, unfolding its innate potentials and possibilities. Meaning and value is derived thru experience....and is expanded in creation.

that doesn't make sense to me

my answer is

the purpose of our is existence
is
to test our free will
and
at the same time we are changed by what we do
and
possibly by what is done to us

 

[aikido7]

have you ever noticed my attempts to engage her in dialogue?

I may have but I don't remember specifically.

What I do remember is a denial of the Jesus she found in the gospels as well as a tirade of mockery and insults, judgment and condemnation.

Again, I do not remember specific posters who might have treated her with openness and respect and a willingness to learn.

Jesus is a hard taskmaster. It is so much easier just to believe the statement "He died for my sins" or "If I am saved I will get to heaven." But his Kingdom of God parabolic teachings are unsettling and difficult to put into practice.

So it doesn't surprise me Christians often ignore the religion of Jesus and focus instead of the religion ABOUT Jesus.

 

[aikido7]

meshak is limited to her own context of study/knowledge, as when I share resource sites and research-portals with her, she is not interested in such scholarly or comparative works usually,...but goes on her own 'interpretation' of what Jesus teaches. I've noted the whole comparison and differences between Jesus and Paul's teaching is a controversial area as the tenets of Judaism and Paul's anti-law teachings conflict, as well as other controversial aspects challenging the validity of Paul being a true disciple of Jesus. Many contest that, - I as well have problems with Paul on various levels, but agree with his universal and gnostic insights on some particulars. Unfortunately some have exalted Paul's letters and 'his' gospel as the height or pinnacle of revelatory truth,...and it is appealing...since its a 'free meal-ticket' to heaven for a lot of folks, hailing the 'faith without works' concept.

You usually see where people are limited and if they are willing to really research and dialogue, attempting to see where the other is coming from, both trying to understand and respect the others point of view,...and know where to pursue discussion and where its been exhausted,.....that's the challenge.



pj

Comparative and scholarly data have revealed a diversity of theologies and beliefs about the meaning of Jesus and they are found throughout the New Testament. Sometimes two different traditions are found in the same gospel.

None of the gospels were written when Jesus was alive and each author had his own agenda.

 

[meshak]

have you ever noticed my attempts to engage her in dialogue?

Excuse me for butting in. I don't continue meaningless talk after I explained my position and you repeat the same question over and over.

You don't accept it when you don't agree with what is offered.

What you do is just childish nitpicking and it is worthless talk.

 

[freelight]

Taking Jesus words to heart.............

Taking Jesus words to heart.............

Jesus is a hard taskmaster. It is so much easier just to believe the statement "He died for my sins" or "If I am saved I will get to heaven." But his Kingdom of God parabolic teachings are unsettling and difficult to put into practice.

Yes,...the clear teachings of Jesus himself, centered in the sermon on the mount, his parables and other illustrations...call us to do some very difficult things in some situations, encouraging us to deny ourselves to serve others for the greater good. Those who choose to simply tuck Jesus teachings away to an earlier 'dispensation' (MAD views and similar) and only hold to Paul's gospel, only confound the problem, but its difficult to resolve or synthesize as it is, taking the entire NT as a whole in relation to what the 'new covenant' is, and how its to be practiced (enter a hodge-podge of theology).

So it doesn't surprise me Christians often ignore the religion of Jesus and focus instead of the religion ABOUT Jesus.

This is precisely what the Urantia Papers emphasize, calling us back to the religion OF Jesus, and not just having a religion ABOUT Jesus. Very good :thumb: - this view focuses on the teachings of Jesus himself in their universal, spiritual, social, practical value for us who are called to be citizens of the kingdom, being sons of God with one universal Father.



pj

 

[meshak]

Freelight,

We are Jesus' followers. His teachings are not so difficult to understand, and yes it is hard to follow. But we don't need to go another source to follow Him.

Jesus commands us to "go therefore, make disciples of all nations... teachings them to obey everything I commanded you."

We have no business making simple gospel complicated by bringing up something else so that you have something to argue with your opponents.

We already have plenty of Jesus' word that we can hardly accomplish in our lifetime.

What you are doing is not effective evangelism. It may make you feel better by knowing extra things but you are adding confusion by what you are preaching.

 

[freelight]

Reliability of the accounts and 'doctoring' of texts......

Reliability of the accounts and 'doctoring' of texts......

Freelight,

We are Jesus' followers. His teachings are not so difficult to understand, and yes it is hard to follow. But we don't need to go another source to follow Him.

Jesus commands us to "go therefore, make disciples of all nations... teachings them to obey everything I commanded you."

We have no business making simple gospel complicated by bringing up something else so that you have something to argue with your opponents.

We already have plenty of Jesus' word that we can hardly accomplish in our lifetime.

What you are doing is not effective evangelism. It may make you feel better by knowing extra things but you are adding confusion by what you are preaching.

Hi meshak and those following,

My former observations stand,...and I'll add that the 'con-fusion' exists already within the various books of the bible, especially when comparing the teaching of Jesus with Paul's letters...which teach a different 'gospel' within a different 'audience-context', with different dynamics, terms and meaning regarding salvation, respect to the law, adherence to Jewish customs, etc. My commentary and resource materials point seekers to information so they can do their own research regarding the historical, cultural, doctrinal issues behind the belief-systems, as they are and have developed. On this count, since you do not bother to do further 'research' but apparently just use what you find in the gospels themselves (being also limited to some extent in your current use of English), you are limited and may not know some of the finer points of controversy regarding the whole 'Jesus vs. Paul' issue, so my pointing these out is not meant to confuse, but to correlate, compare and illuminate. I cant help it if I come from a broader more extensive knowledge-base and eclectic-approach to theology, but that's just how I roll

Even as we consider the entire Bible as its been canonized,....men put it altogether according to their own religious bias, interest and use,....therefore its tailored to the writers and their religious beliefs....obviously. If you only go by 'Jesus words only', you are limited to what we have recorded of his words, if we really trust that the 4 gospels chosen out of so many others contain all Jesus words, and these were really his own words. Some of the sayings of Jesus may be only 'here-say', 'assumptions', 'near-approximations' or only some 'tradition'....but may not be wholly accurate renderings of his original words. (while some sayings are more 'solid', others are ripe for 'cherry-picking') - see the Jesus Seminar.

So,...you've got those textual issues to consider. This is why I also consider non-canonical, apocryphal, Gnostic and more modern day 'channeled' info. when considering what Jesus actually taught. You have to use your own discernment of historical facts, probabilities, possibilities and your own inner guidance as to the value of any of it, and how it relates to anything. That's just the fact of the matter,....however you CHOOSE to interpret and apply these so called 'teachings of Jesus' or any biblical text (fact or fancy) for that matter.

The gospels themselves have contradictions, then John's gospel its own esoteric more gnostic presentation of Jesus teachings, and even that gospel says the world could not contain all the records of all Jesus said and did! - so,...you've got a limited record of Jesus sayings and doings with no proof that its all 100% true. The only valid thing is how a religionist interprets and applies these teachings as to their meaning and value, at last 'proved' thru personal experience. -that's it.

We have other records of Jesus teachings, and plenty of folks claiming to channel Jesus these days (its pretty open season in some quarters ),....so I don't see the gospels as that special, except as manuscripts unique to their historical context and creation, but still 'scripted' by those persons with their own religious agenda....and naturally so.



pj

 

[patrick jane]

Hi [B]meshak[/B]

and those following,

My former observations stand,...and I'll add that the 'con-fusion' exists already within the various books of the bible, especially when comparing the teaching of Jesus with Paul's letters...which teach a different 'gospel' within a different 'audience-context', with different dynamics, terms and meaning regarding salvation, respect to the law, adherence to Jewish customs, etc. My commentary and resource materials point seekers to information so they can do their own research regarding the historical, cultural, doctrinal issues behind the belief-systems, as they are and have developed. On this count, since you do not bother to do further 'research' but apparently just use what you find in the gospels themselves (being also limited to some extent in your current use of English), you are limited and may not know some of the finer points of controversy regarding the whole 'Jesus vs. Paul' issue, so my pointing these out is not meant to confuse, but to correlate, compare and illuminate. I cant help it if I come from a broader more extensive knowledge-base and eclectic-approach to theology, but that's just how I roll

Even as we consider the entire Bible as its been canonized,....men put it altogether according to their own religious bias, interest and use,....therefore its tailored to the writers and their religious beliefs....obviously. If you only go by 'Jesus words only', you are limited to what we have recorded of his words, if we really trust that the 4 gospels chosen out of so many others contain all Jesus words, and these were really his own words. Some of the sayings of Jesus may be only 'here-say', 'assumptions', 'near-approximations' or only some 'tradition'....but may not be wholly accurate renderings of his original words. (while some sayings are more 'solid', others are ripe for 'cherry-picking') - see the Jesus Seminar.

So,...you've got those textual issues to consider. This is why I also consider non-canonical, apocryphal, Gnostic and more modern day 'channeled' info. when considering what Jesus actually taught. You have to use your own discernment of historical facts, probabilities, possibilities and your own inner guidance as to the value of any of it, and how it relates to anything. That's just the fact of the matter,....however you CHOOSE to interpret and apply these so called 'teachings of Jesus' or any biblical text (fact or fancy) for that matter.

The gospels themselves have contradictions, then John's gospel its own esoteric more gnostic presentation of Jesus teachings, and even that gospel says the world could not contain all the records of all Jesus said and did! - so,...you've got a limited record of Jesus sayings and doings with no proof that its all 100% true. The only valid thing is how a religionist interprets and applies these teachings as to their meaning and value, at last 'proved' thru personal experience. -that's it.

We have other records of Jesus teachings, and plenty of folks claiming to channel Jesus these days (its pretty open season in some quarters ),....so I don't see the gospels as that special, except as manuscripts unique to their historical context and creation, but still 'scripted' by those persons with their own
religious agenda
....and naturally so.

pj

throughout your posting you discredit the Bible, the written Word of God. you cast aspersions; calumny, on the authors and the Holy Spirit of God. you allude to a higher level of truth and understanding; spirit, something beyond the Bible and outside of Christianity -

you encourage and promote doubting the Word of God, instead focusing on self. you use words like a politician under the guise of a Hindu Christian, promoting your material and the material of like-minded heretics. you add and subtract from the Word of God.

for some satanic reason you particularly attack Paul, perhaps as an attention grabber. i don't judge you and enjoy your light-hearted approach and humor, most of the time - lately you never seem to be spreading peace and love and Free Light - preach the good news of your interpretations instead of focusing on your findings of contradictions in the Bible (which don't exist) - atrol:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes,...the clear teachings of Jesus himself, centered in the sermon on the mount, his parables and other illustrations...call us to do some very difficult things in some situations, encouraging us to deny ourselves to serve others for the greater good. Those who choose to simply tuck Jesus teachings away to an earlier 'dispensation' (MAD views and similar) and only hold to Paul's gospel, only confound the problem, but its difficult to resolve or synthesize as it is, taking the entire NT as a whole in relation to what the 'new covenant' is, and how its to be practiced (enter a hodge-podge of theology).



This is precisely what the Urantia Papers emphasize, calling us back to the religion OF Jesus, and not just having a religion ABOUT Jesus. Very good :thumb: - this view focuses on the teachings of Jesus himself in their universal, spiritual, social, practical value for us who are called to be citizens of the kingdom, being sons of God with one universal Father.



pj

I'll bet your "little green men in their UFOs" told you to post this stuff?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Urantia Book is a fallacy! A Satanic fairy tale!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Freelight, I certainly hope I'm not getting on your nerves buddy? Your little green men wouldn't like that too much, would they?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

By the way Freelight, neg-reps don't do much of anything anymore.
I'll not be returning them to you but, feel free to give me as many as
your heart desires.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I remind those who want to understand what Freelight and Caino believe, they
may Google; Urantia UFO Cult!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Urantia book has some similarities to Scientology! They both were
introduced in the mid-50s.

 

[freelight]

in freelight fasion.......

in freelight fasion.......

throughout your posting you discredit the Bible, the written Word of God. you cast aspersions; calumny, on the authors and the Holy Spirit of God. you allude to a higher level of truth and understanding; spirit, something beyond the Bible and outside of Christianity -

you encourage and promote doubting the Word of God, instead focusing on self. you use words like a politician under the guise of a Hindu Christian, promoting your material and the material of like-minded heretics. you add and subtract from the Word of God.

for some satanic reason you particularly attack Paul, perhaps as an attention grabber. i don't judge you and enjoy your light-hearted approach and humor, most of the time - lately you never seem to be spreading peace and love and Free Light - preach the good news of your interpretations instead of focusing on your findings of contradictions in the Bible (which don't exist) - atrol:

Hi pj,

My commentary stands,...one can take it as they like, and if wishing to engage, can do so. The Bible is one book among other religious books, it just so happens hat you were introduced to it and the beliefs associated with it or about it, and have currently deemed it 'God's Word'. If you were born into another religious tradition or school, you would have likely accepted their standard religious writings as 'scripture'. Your 'belief' or 'POV' could change at any time,...you cant prove that it could not, since with the advent of new revelation or experience...our perspectives may change. By this token, we remain open to 'progressive revelation' If we are not open to it,...we are intellectually stuck and spiritually retarded. Heaven forbid.

On the subject of 'contradictions' in the Bible, that deserves its own thread,...and I'm quite aware that so called 'contradictions' may exist in other religious texts, which do not necessarily discount their value on the whole. Certain specific passages in some works might have their problems, but are understood within the greater context of how or why such came to be. You don't know if any of it is true beyond your own logic, reason and intelligence, and at least only have your own personal religious experience to validate any of it, to any degree. You don't know if all the words in the gospels are truly Jesus, and that there does not exist any interpolations, additions, ommissions or some things taken wholly by 'here-say' or 'tradition',...so, a lot you take by faith beyond any serious research. Other texts or revelations can add to one's understanding of Jesus and his teachings, and some extra-biblical works DO just that, believe it or not.

Now since TOL is for dialogue,..I commend you for at least attempting to engage in it,...bravo! Consciousness is all there is,...so we play and engage it,...its what 'creation' is all about, this movement of relating information, sharing viewpoints, engaging subjectivity and objectivity. Its just a dance of mind, illusion....amid a mix of 'light' and 'shadow', hence all in this dimension of perception is 'relative'.

I could go on,....but don't forget there are some peeps here who cant seem to read beyond a few lines, since they don't have the time to engage their noggin, lest they expend their mental energies beyond necessity, and become enlightened, or at least expanded to verge to a father point on the horizon. But....you get what you put into it,...and what life translates into...is what you do with the space and time afforded you. On this level, it is true....that one creates their own reality (in as much as their experience is a reflection or effect of their own state of consciousness or condition of mind, and the law of karma)




pj

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Hi pj,

My commentary stands,...

Your views are of no interest to Bible believing individuals
who aren't interested in UFOs, little green men, human
conduits used by cosmic beings with made up names, and
fantasy/fiction writings!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Freelight, nobodies buying your little green men in their shiny
UFO crafts! No matter how many voices are in your head from
"Cosmic Entities!"