ECT TLO comes to TOL

[Lazy afternoon]

There is no record of T.L.Osborn putting on a show either. You sneer, but those meetings in Africa were precious T.L. and his ministry and partners went to ENORMOUS trouble and expense to put them on. Go and ask the Africans about them, go and ask those who were saved, those who were healed and those who became missionaries.

I expect you call Billy Graham a showman for he works upon exactly the same methods as T.L.O but I have met pastors who were saved through BG's ministry. You see men, I see the Holy Ghost who you sneer at.

I made no sneer.

You are not facing the truth of the matter.

When God saves people He saves them in families and the practice of so many evangelicals is that they attract new believers away from their Christian families.

It is not the front up message that they preach which is the problem it is the secret stealing and indoctrination of the saved which is the problem.

The so called evangelicals will do nothing without the money.

A little look into the private lives of those so idolized by the church bears out the truth of what I have said.

The same thing happens when believers set up their own kings (pastors) over themselves.

Do you never read your bible about these things?

Men and women believers are so often looking to some great man to lead them to the promised land but it always ends in ruin and only then do some of them repent.



LA

 

[Totton Linnet]

If the gospel is ever to be preached somebody has to stand up and open their mouth...what are you doing sitting on your fingers? are you out for souls? What you say would easily apply to John Wesley, in fact those are th very things they did say.

That is how the gospel has always been, you talk about megachurch Jesus had it, 5, 000 men in a meeting + all the women and children. It is not that they look for the crowds but if anybody has got something good people flock to it. The crowds flocked to Jesus and the apostles and to John Wesley.

You slander T. L. Osborn [did you listen to him preach at all?] you do not realize that in Africa people walked for days to be at his meetings, crossing dangerous borders guarded by crazy soldiers

There was a miracle associated with T.L. he could turn up at a meeting unannounced, unadvertised, and the crowds would come. He suddenly turned up in Belfast in those troubles and the Irish have never forgotten him.

Of course Americans don't know, his work has been done in Africa and the poor nations...THEY know him.

 

[Redeemed-777]

T. L. Osborne was the one who did some copious research on the NT word "believe"
... and he concluded that it meant: believe in, have faith in, trust in, and obey!

I.E. If a BAC obeys, he is guaranteed everlasting life (in heaven, not in hell).

How does that fit in with the doctrine of easy-believism in today's Laodicean churches?

All from the pits of hell, my friend, all from the pits of hell.
Good Luck!
.

 

[Psalmist]

T. L. Osborne was the one who did some copious research on the NT word "believe"
... and he concluded that it meant: believe in, have faith in, trust in, and obey!

I.E. If a BAC obeys, he is guaranteed everlasting life (in heaven, not in hell).

How does that fit in with the doctrine of easy-believism in today's Laodicean churches?

All from the pits of hell, my friend, all from the pits of hell.
Good Luck!
.

Who are you addressing?​

 

[Totton Linnet]

T. L. Osborne was the one who did some copious research on the NT word "believe"
... and he concluded that it meant: believe in, have faith in, trust in, and obey!

I.E. If a BAC obeys, he is guaranteed everlasting life (in heaven, not in hell).

How does that fit in with the doctrine of easy-believism in today's Laodicean churches?

All from the pits of hell, my friend, all from the pits of hell.
Good Luck!
.

T.L. came up through the faith/holiness movement without any question, but he mellowed considerably and spoke more and more about grace, he was after all in the field for more than 50 years.

He believed in active faith and he was daring as Smith Wigglesworth was before him commanding people to put away crutches and canes. It is faith that acts with him. He did not drop either holiness or faith but he developed the way he preached it. T.L. would never believe one could be lost...they may backslide and lose the blessings and benefits that attend salvation...as also the bible.

He longed for folk to SEE and UNDERSTAND their worth as children of God...how you think is how you act.


...the essence of your preaching Redeemed is to make people fear and to doubt not believe. God bids us to come BOLDLY to Him, you'll never do it as long as you think He has a club behind His back.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Victory and Identity

Victory and Identity

Victory and Identity

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Totton Linnet

I was watching this video of Kathryn Kuhlman and was struck by something, namely, her interest in the denomination of one of the persons who had claimed to be healed and came to the stage. This caused me to examine the inter-action revolving around the entire episode in some detail...I probably would have missed it except for the fact that I have watched a video of this woman on you tube the other night after watching some of the videos posted on your blog.

I watched some of the Joseph Prince videos and in the search there was a video of Kathryn Kuhlman speaking to a audience. She was about the same age as in this clip you posted. She was an impressive orator, flamboyant, yet in an elegant feminine fashion, thoughtful in her presentation in the sense that she allowed time to be her friend with pauses and elongated phrasing combined with elegant, though forceful gestures, a strong and steady gaze, self assured to a high degree, and stateing so publicly...all together engaging, I found. I listened on that occasion for about 30 minutes, observing casually, internally no spikes were registered. Than I watched a couple of bits and pieces from some other videos, studio based, and I detected a certain plasticity in her performance and a woodeness to her tone and articulation...that cause be a little concern...she is at her best with a live audience, so I thought, like many bands who prefer live gigs because of the pulse of energy exchange with the live audience, rather than the stale and sterile studio or tv show.

However...what I have discovered in 3 minutes on this video you have posted has dramaticlly changed my perspective and opinion.

Totton Linnet I will lay out what I have noted in the three minute segment (in cronological order ie min and sec) below for your, and other interested parties, close examination and consideration...these things are of concern.

4.50 - woman comes to stage after being healed of artheritis

5.20 - KK says - "Where do you go to church"

The woman responds - some place "in Texas" - note that the question was meant to be met by information not only of location...but denomination...this will be verified in a further enquiry very shortly, the reason being that KK needs the denomination, not the location, which will be revealed as you watch further.

5.25 - KK says - "What church"

The woman replies - "Presbyterian" note - KK needed the denomination which the woman failed to give with the first enquiry [deliberately or forgetfully ? ] this reqired a direct question from KK because her game is to discredit the Doctrines of that church along with the denomination by showing that it is spiritually dead (supposedly)...KK will mention the "Presbyterian" church 4 times in less than three minutes, and each time with emphasis.

5.48 - The woman states - "both my husband and myself are Elders"

This shows that church is in violation of scripture, as the office of Elder can not be held by a woman, a woman has no authority over men in the church of God...this is usful for KK as another one of her games is to destroy the authority structure put in place by the Holy Spirit...Man is the head, and woman have no authority to teach men in the formal structure of a church

5.51 - KK says - she makes the point again of highlighting the fact that they are from the Presbyterian church.

6.12 - KK says - Once again emphazeing the Presbyterian church and the fact that the woman and the man are both Elders.

Continues to attack the doctrines of the church along with the denomination also reiterates that the woman is an Elder along with her husband...another attack on the authority of the male in the structure of the formal church and in the home....remember KK cuts quite a figure of feminine power and authority and assertivness with feminine elegance

6.17 - KK says - asks the husband "did you expect this" the husband says quietly "no I didn't"...KK says strongly pulling him to the mike "confess, confess"

This once again plays the game of diminishing the male as weak in faith...implicitly suggesting that it was the womans faith and intuition and sensitiveness to the things of the Spirit, which is the only reason they came, which will be revealed latter as the distance of 600 miles, again strengthening the qualities of the woman, such as empathy, sensitiveness to the things of the Spirit...eroding the authority of the male which is God instituted

6.23 - KK says - asks the husband who is an "Elder" what has he got to say in regards to the apparent healing...He says "I don't know what to say ?"

The benifit here for KK is that the male Elder is seen to be weak and spiritually insensitive even blind to the things of the Spirit...this again erodes away at the biblical injunction that the male has authority over the female in the formal structure of the church...it also highlights the conduit KK

6.38 - There is a bit of chit chat here revealing that the two Elders have travelled 600 miles one way to attend this meeting.

Thus it is imlicitly implied that it was at the wifes insistence...this reinforcing the dynamic of the deadness and insensitivety of the male in contrast to the intuitive and empathetic female who is more in tune with etheral matters...continuing the theme of eroding male headship in the church.

6.39 - KK says - "Dear Jesus along with this wonderfull healing" .. The woman swoons under and begins to fall backwards as KK holds her face gently with both hands...then steps away and says with emphasis "Down goes a Presbyterian"

This is now the 4th time in the space of 2 minutes that KK has chosen to highlight the fact that these Elders are from the Presbyterian church...once again corrosive inuendo is used to disparage the doctrines of grace taught by the Presbyterian church with the implicit suggestion that the church is dead and as dead as male headship

6.53 - KK says - "What if the rest of the members of that church could see her now, it will never be the same"

Here KK states explicitly her implicit intent...to effect the Presbyterian church...by suggesting it is spiritually dead and the doctrines of grace with it...that male headship should be usurped...and that the intuitive and empathetic qualities of woman are a more reliable conduit inregards the things of the Spirit.

7.07 - KK suggests that the woman should take a walk down the stage to demonstrate her healing...so she begins to walk carrying her handbag in her right hand...she takes about 8 steps but she realizes before she gets to the end that she has the handbag in her right hand which is the wrong hand...Why ?...because when she turns the bag will be on the wrong side for the attendants...so as she turns at the end of the cat walk like a well trained model...she swaps her handbag into the other hand...Why? becomes apparent...as she takes the first couple of steps heading back towards KK...KK says with firm voice "Hold her purse, You men are so helpless sometimes"...now we see the reason for the handbag being swapped into the left hand from the right...so that it will be on the side of the attendants when walking back to KK

This little mistake by the woman...which she made when setting out on her walk...for if the bag had been in the left hand from the start she would not have had to swap over at the turn...which is the give away...especialy as the swap was completed before the biggest explicit male put down of this short charade...which KK has been building to..."hold her purse , you men are so helpless"

7.34 - KK holds womans head again in both hands and woman begins to show early signs of swooning but stays upright. KK than turns attention to the male with one hand on his right shoulder KK jabs her finger into his chest and says "Jesus I want you to do something in him" he mutters something llike "praise the Lord"... she response with a few words and then gives him a strong stare into his face...she then makes the effort to swoon him under but nothing...then her face looses its countinence and becomes very firm and with a shake of her head and a dramatic gesture of outstretched arm in a commanding manner expels them both from the stage

I challenge anyone to watch carefully at the points I have mentioned...to rewind and watch again,,,and again...and see if these things I mention here are not true facts.

My conclusion...KK is a massive fraud who has a familiar spirit...one I am happy to say I am not familiar with....I thank the LORD Jesus Christ for revealing that to me, and others.
.

The problem is in the mixture.

Ask Benny Hinn where his anointing came from.

People often start out in Christ and after being unwilling to pay the price for the real , being unable to walk the real walk, they are presented with an alternative to make themselves great.

We only have to examine their doctrine to know they learn from men who they follow.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

double post.

 

[Totton Linnet]

's' long as you good folk keep your eyes on men you'll see imperfection.....you won't get owt from God because you are doing what they critics of Jesus did. Others will press in and recieve, and even though you see it you won't credit the miracle you'll say "he is holding his bed in his right hand on the sabbath."

 

[Lazy afternoon]

's' long as you good folk keep your eyes on men you'll see imperfection.....you won't get owt from God because you are doing what they critics of Jesus did. Others will press in and recieve, and even though you see it you won't credit the miracle you'll say "he is holding his bed in his right hand on the sabbath."

Do not be so naïve.

Men will mislead you everytime as they have to you because you worship them and you refuse to admit it.

LA

 

[Totton Linnet]

Do not be so naïve.

Men will mislead you everytime as they have to you because you worship them and you refuse to admit it.

LA

Yes but when you recieve, not from men, but from the hand of God you don't care.....your only sorrow is that folk like you do your darndest to stop people from recieving.

I am so glad I was alone in my home when I got saved [and T.L. was instrumental in my salvation] when I turned up at meeting I was shocked at the unbelief I found among so-called Pentecostal christians.

You don't think it but if you criticise unjustly it is a great sin in God's eyes.

doing the devil's work for him, you will become bitter ......and as far as crooked preachers go if there are any, I don't talk about them, I leave them in God's hands.

 

[Redeemed-777]

T.L. came up through the faith/holiness movement without any question, but he mellowed considerably and spoke more and more about grace, he was after all in the field for more than 50 years.

Okay, what do you think T. L. would have said about
the verses in the new thread about conditional salvation?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes but when you recieve, not from men, but from the hand of God you don't care.....your only sorrow is that folk like you do your darndest to stop people from recieving.

I am so glad I was alone in my home when I got saved [and T.L. was instrumental in my salvation] when I turned up at meeting I was shocked at the unbelief I found among so-called Pentecostal christians.

You don't think it but if you criticise unjustly it is a great sin in God's eyes.

doing the devil's work for him, you will become bitter ......and as far as crooked preachers go if there are any, I don't talk about them, I leave them in God's hands.

In every age the evangelicals fall away.

The love of glory and money ending in illicit sex is the downfall of all the false prophets and fallen evangelicals.

You like to accuse others in order to defend your lost cause.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


You would align yourself with people of reputation.

Those are the people who resisted Paul.

You know nothing of soul force, but you use it a lot.

LA

 

[Totton Linnet]

In every age the evangelicals fall away.

The love of glory and money ending in illicit sex is the downfall of all the false prophets and fallen evangelicals.

You like to accuse others in order to defend your lost cause.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


You would align yourself with people of reputation.

Those are the people who resisted Paul.

You know nothing of soul force, but you use it a lot.

LA

Are you charging T.L.Osborn with anything? Billy Graham?

My guess is that the first person you started to criticize was the minister or person by whose ministry you were saved and you've kept at it steadily these 50 years. Not blessing anyone, not being instrumental in anybody's salvation....you have become bitter...even now denying the Master, His divinity.

We have got GOOD news of GLAD tidings to give, good news to the sinner, He bore your sins.
Good news to the sick He bore our sicknesses and carried our infirmities
Good news to any who are downhearted or troubled the chastisement for our peace was upon Him and by His stripes we were healed.
Good news to the fearful or vexed, our God is an ever present help to any in need.

He is Father to the weak, the widow, the upholder of rights to any who are opressed....He careth for the poor.

Our desire is to bless, to encourage, to strengthen, to lift. Our message is full of faith and hope. Ours is the LOVE message of the cross and the benefits obtained thererfrom.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Are you charging T.L.Osborn with anything? Billy Graham?

My guess is that the first person you started to criticize was the minister or person by whose ministry you were saved and you've kept at it steadily these 50 years. Not blessing anyone, not being instrumental in anybody's salvation....you have become bitter...even now denying the Master, His divinity.

No. There you go again defending someone by falsely accusing another.

We have got GOOD news of GLAD tidings to give, good news to the sinner, He bore your sins.
Good news to the sick He bore our sicknesses and carried our infirmities
Good news to any who are downhearted or troubled the chastisement for our peace was upon Him and by His stripes we were healed.
Good news to the fearful or vexed, our God is an ever present help to any in need.

He is Father to the weak, the widow, the upholder of rights to any who are opressed....He careth for the poor.

Our desire is to bless, to encourage, to strengthen, to lift. Our message is full of faith and hope. Ours is the LOVE message of the cross and the benefits obtained thererfrom.

If someone preaches the gospel but does not live it then they are false and a deceiver.

Ask Benny Hinn where his anointing came from, and ask KK why she hid all the people in the wheel chairs.

You are a name dropper and should be more careful but then it is easy for someone like you to be deceived, and to help other people to follow the church kings.

You will not understand that.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Try this article---

http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page7.html


Deception in the Church

THE WORD FAITH MOVEMENT







Who are the Leaders of the Word-Faith Movement?





A growing number of pastors, teachers, and evangelists within the Charismatic/Pentecostal circles of the Christian church are advancing what has come to be known as the "Word Faith" movement. Its major leaders include such prominent figures as Kenneth Hagin; Kenneth Copeland; Frederick K. C. Price; and David (Paul) Yongii Cho, who pastors one of the largest churches in the world in Seoul, Korea. Other well-known Word Faith personalities include Gloria Copeland, Robert Tilton, John Avanzini, John Osteen, T. L. Osborne, Charles Capps, Marilyn Hickey, Jerry Savelle, Joyce Meyer, Morris Cerullo, Casey Treat, Dwight Thompson, and Oral and Richard Roberts.

In the USA Word Faith doctrines are commonly disseminated through radio broadcasts, tapes, books, and tracts, primarily through the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), which regularly airs the programs of more than a dozen of these teachers. Paul and Jan Crouch, the directors of TBN, who are themselves deeply involved in the movement, have also featured Word Faith teachers as special guests on their "Praise the Lord" and "Praise-a-thon" (fund-raiser) programs. The Crouchs' worldwide platform has mainstreamed Word Faith theology to the lives of millions of Christians who would not otherwise have encountered Word Faith theology. Christianity in the western world has been heavily influenced in many quarters by this movement to the point where many consider it the main thrust of the charismatic movement. In Europe these doctrines are brought in through visiting USA speakers and their materials, and by influenced pastors and leaders - and also through the "GOD Christian Channel" which concentrates on many of tese teachers via Satellite and Cable TV. In South Wales the main adherents are pastored by Ray Bevan in King's Church, Newport, but the influence is also noticeable in the Elim and Assemblies of God Pentecostal movements.


Read on.

LA

 

[Totton Linnet]

I asked you what charges you have to bring against T.L.Osborn, specific charges.

You have been alluding to greediness, sexual misbehaviour so do you charge T.L with that?

I have been speaking about a great number who have been saved through his ministry, churches planted, missionaries raised up etc, etc.

If you don't clear off with your slander.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page7.html

quote
The vibrant message delivered with great authority through these media, and seemingly backed by Scripture and buttressed by claims of the miraculous, has led many astray. These teachers often deliver cautions against those who would criticize the doctrines.

Such people are called "nay sayers" and negative influences. If such people cannot be won over to Word-Faith teachings, the listener or reader is told, they should be avoided. An example of the kind of sneering and contradictory attack launched on anyone who questions their beliefs and doctrines can be heard from Ray Bevan's ministry (King's Church, tapes - 6th & 13th September '98). Often when a Word-Faith teacher or their teachings are criticized, there will be allegations of "sowing division in the body" or lack of belief in healing, or demons, or the miraculous. unquote

Kinda describes Tottons methods doesn't it.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I asked you what charges you have to bring against T.L.Osborn, specific charges.

You have been alluding to greediness, sexual misbehaviour so do you charge T.L with that?

I have been speaking about a great number who have been saved through his ministry, churches planted, missionaries raised up etc, etc.

If you don't clear off with your slander.

You regard corrections of your great ones as being slander??

If you did not idolize your church leaders then you would be able to handle a little criticism.

LA

 

[Psalmist]

Try this article---

http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page7.html

Deception in the Church

THE WORD FAITH MOVEMENT


Who are the Leaders of the Word-Faith Movement?

A growing number of pastors, teachers, and evangelists within the Charismatic/Pentecostal circles of the Christian church are advancing what has come to be known as the "Word Faith" movement. Its major leaders include such prominent figures as Kenneth Hagin; Kenneth Copeland; Frederick K. C. Price; and David (Paul) Yongii Cho, who pastors one of the largest churches in the world in Seoul, Korea. Other well-known Word Faith personalities include Gloria Copeland, Robert Tilton, John Avanzini, John Osteen, T. L. Osborne, Charles Capps, Marilyn Hickey, Jerry Savelle, Joyce Meyer, Morris Cerullo, Casey Treat, Dwight Thompson, and Oral and Richard Roberts.

In the USA Word Faith doctrines are commonly disseminated through radio broadcasts, tapes, books, and tracts, primarily through the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), which regularly airs the programs of more than a dozen of these teachers. Paul and Jan Crouch, the directors of TBN, who are themselves deeply involved in the movement, have also featured Word Faith teachers as special guests on their "Praise the Lord" and "Praise-a-thon" (fund-raiser) programs. The Crouchs' worldwide platform has mainstreamed Word Faith theology to the lives of millions of Christians who would not otherwise have encountered Word Faith theology. Christianity in the western world has been heavily influenced in many quarters by this movement to the point where many consider it the main thrust of the charismatic movement. In Europe these doctrines are brought in through visiting USA speakers and their materials, and by influenced pastors and leaders - and also through the "GOD Christian Channel" which concentrates on many of tese teachers via Satellite and Cable TV. In South Wales the main adherents are pastored by Ray Bevan in King's Church, Newport, but the influence is also noticeable in the Elim and Assemblies of God Pentecostal movements.


Read on.

LA

LA post re-sized for a better post fit.

What about Pastor Jack Hayford of "The Church on the Way" and the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, where do they fit in your investigation?

What false or corrupt thing is the ICFG guilty of?

The ICFG is very conservative Pentecostal Church.​