This 'Generation' Shall Not Pass Away Till All Be Fulfilled

[Tambora]

Explain this to me again because I'm slow. To tell them that that generation (however one defines "generation" but that's another can of worms) would not pass away until all that He described had come to pass...that's a very certain thing. As in, "You can bank on it." So where's the conditionality/uncertainty in that? I don't see any at all.

The contingency is only "till all is fulfilled" --- the generation is guaranteed to last at least that long.
But it does not guarantee that the generation will last forever and ever, even after all is fulfilled.
So it has to use the subjunctive mood that depends on more info (and in this verse, more info is given --- till all be fulfilled.

It should be noticed that both clauses ......

Luke 21:32 KJV
(32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.​

.... are both in subjective mood.

Meaning that while they are guaranteed to not pass away UNTIL ALL BE FULFILLED, that guarantee is still only a possibility/uncertainty after all be fulfilled.

Anytime the subjective mood has a contingency clause after it, (usually after an if, until, then, etc).
That clause "till all be fulfilled" is what modifies it at least to that point, but still not guaranteed beyond that point.

If the verse had another clause after "till all be fulfilled" that modified it even more, such as .......

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled, then I will establish you before Me forever.

​

........... would give more info of the contingency (in this last case they will NEVER pass away).

But as the verse stands, the only guarantee is that they will not pass at least until all be fulfilled.
So the possibility/uncertainty is still there that they could pass away or not, but only after all is fulfilled.

The verse is not trying to establish that the generation will never ever ever pass away, but only that the generation will remain at least up until all is fulfilled.
After that point, this verse still leaves it up in the air as to whether they will ever pass away.


Long story short, additional "context" in the verse determines what the contingency/stipulation/condition is.
In this case the additional context providing that contingency/stipulation/condition is "till all be fulfilled".

 

[Tambora]

As I said, I think that the correct translation is "family" and not "generation."

Yeah, but like Musty said, that's another can of worms.
For this verse, it does not matter what one thinks "generation" means as far as the contingency on whether the generation/family/ nation/race will ever pass away or not.
And I say "in this verse", because as you have shown, there are other verses that could indeed extend that contingency beyond the "till all be fulfilled".
And I'm sure there will even be dispute on what the "all" is in "till all be fulfilled".
Every single promise to the whole world, or every single promise to Israel (the generation,family,nation,race)?

According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the offspring of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him.

Yeppers!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yeah, but like Musty said, that's another can of worms.

Yes, and the other can of worms happens to be the subject of this thread.

Do you think that the word "generation" as used at Matthew 24:34 is a correct translation?

Thanks!

 

[musterion]

Yes, and the other can of worms happens to be the subject of this thread.

And still another can is the KJO issue, which I hope doesn't erupt.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And still another can is the KJO issue.

Is that an issue with you?

Thanks!

 

[musterion]

The contingency is only "till all is fulfilled" --- the generation is guaranteed to last at least that long.
But it does not guarantee that the generation will last forever and ever, even after all is fulfilled.
So it has to use the subjunctive mood that depends on more info (and in this verse, more info is given --- till all be fulfilled.

It should be noticed that both clauses ......

Luke 21:32 KJV
(32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.​

.... are both in subjective mood.

Meaning that while they are guaranteed to not pass away UNTIL ALL BE FULFILLED, that guarantee is still only a possibility/uncertainty after all be fulfilled.

Anytime the subjective mood has a contingency clause after it, (usually after an if, until, then, etc).
That clause "till all be fulfilled" is what modifies it at least to that point, but still not guaranteed beyond that point.

If the verse had another clause after "till all be fulfilled" that modified it even more, such as .......

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled, then I will establish you before Me forever.

​

........... would give more info of the contingency (in this last case they will NEVER pass away).

But as the verse stands, the only guarantee is that they will not pass at least until all be fulfilled.
So the possibility/uncertainty is still there that they could pass away or not, but only after all is fulfilled.

The verse is not trying to establish that the generation will never ever ever pass away, but only that the generation will remain at least up until all is fulfilled.
After that point, this verse still leaves it up in the air as to whether they will ever pass away.


Long story short, additional "context" in the verse determines what the contingency/stipulation/condition is.
In this case the additional context providing that contingency/stipulation/condition is "till all be fulfilled".

So to put it in terms I'll understand -- your position is that the subjunctive here isn't actually conveying uncertainty or a conditional as we tend to think of it (i.e., is dependent upon [a] and without [a], won't happen)? Does that go for the an particle as well?

 

[Tambora]

Yes, and the other can of worms happens to be the subject of this thread.

Do you think that the word "generation" as used at Matthew 24:34 is a correct translation?

Thanks!

I do.
And one can see in scripture the ways in which "generation" is used contextually.

Just as one can see in scripture the ways in which "seed" is used contextually.
"Seed" is used for:

• a man's sperm (like when Onan spilled his seed on the ground - Gen 38)
• a child/offspring
• a plant pod planted for crop
• the word of GOD (Luke 8:11)

Likewise "generation" carries a variety of meanings.

When Jesus calls the unbelieving Israelites a generation of vipers (Matthew 23), He is referring to all the vipers of Israel throughout history.
We know this because when Jesus says "ye killed the prophets", he is not talking about just the folks living there at the time.
And He stresses the fact with accusing them of killing Zacharias, and Zacharias was not killed by the folks living at the time, but was killed long ago. (2Ch 24:20-21)

Matthew 23:35 KJV​

(35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.​

"ye" cannot refer to those living at the time.


And He goes on the express ....

(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!​

This is speaking of killing the prophets throughout history, and not just those living at the time.

 

[Tambora]

So to put it in terms I'll understand -- your position is that the subjunctive here isn't actually conveying uncertainty or a conditional as we tend to think of it (i.e., is dependent upon [a] and without [a], won't happen)? Does that go for the an particle as well?

Man I can't think of a better way to explain it to ya.
But I'll try.

It is in the subjunctive mood because the phrase, standing alone, does not convey the condition/stipulation.
Only the additional info following the subjunctive gives the condition/stipulation.

To use some examples you gave earlier .... (and I will color code them)

Might you eat some spinach?
Were I to eat spinach, I would get sick.
Should I get sick, I would not be able to go to work.
If you were unable to go to work, you would not be paid.


​

In the first one - no additional info (condition/stipulation) is given, so the possibilities of what will happen when/if you eat spinach are left open.
Might get sick and might not.
Standing alone, the phrase is left wide open as to the possibilities.

In the next 3, additional info follows the subjunctive so it now has a condition/stipulation and is no longer left wide open as to the possibilities.


Were I to eat spinach, [if left alone, this phrase has no condition and is left wide open for possibilities] I would get sick. [this additional info does give a condition and therefore modifies the red subjunctive phrase]

The green additional info modifies the uncertainty of the red phrase.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I do.

The word "generation" may be the correct translation but today when someone reads Matthew 24:34 the thought that is formed in his mind is this definition:

"The people born and living about the same time, considered as a group: the baby-boom generation."​

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/generation​

In order to clear up the misunderstanding in regard to the meaning of that word at Matthew 24:334 what definition of the word would you offer?

When Jesus calls the unbelieving Israelites a generation of vipers (Matthew 23), He is referring to all the vipers of Israel throughout history.

This translation seems to convey a more understandable version of the verse, don't you think?:

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" (Mt.23:33; NIV).​

Thanks!

 

[musterion]

Did find this...

Matthew 24:34 (DNT) Indeed I say to you, not not may pass away the generation this, till all these may be done.


http://www.bibleforandroid.com/v/de010da530dd

 

[musterion]

Is that an issue with you?

Thanks!

A little.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Did find this...

Matthew 24:34 (DNT) Indeed I say to you, not not may pass away the generation this, till all these may be done.

First off all, are we to believe that the words "may be done" are questioning whether or not the things which the Lord said would happen might not happen?

So to translate those words in an understandable manner what do they say? This?:

That this generation may pass away until all these things may be done?

That doesn't make any sense to me. Would you mind giving it a try?

Thanks!

 

[Danoh]

A little.

How so?

 

[intojoy]

Let us look at this passage:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation (genea) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled" (Lk.21:27-32).​

Since the Lord Jesus has not yet returned to the earth it is certain that the generation (genea) who lived in the first century did not see Him in the clouds. So the last verse in "bold" must mean something other than the idea that those living in the first century saw Him in the clouds.

One of the meanings of the Greek word genea which is found in the Lidell-Scott Greek-English Lexicon is "family":

"genea,, a/j, Ion. geneh,, h/j( h`, Ep. dat. geneh/fi: (gi,gnomai): I. of the persons in a family, 1. race, stock, family, Hom., etc.; Pria,mou g. Il.; evk geneh/j according to his family, Ib.; geneh/| by birth-right, Od.; geneh.n Aivtwlo,j by descent, Il.:-of horses, a breed, Ib.:-generally, geneh,n in kind, Hdt.:-also a tribe, nation, Persw/n g. Aesch. 2. a race, generation, oi[hper fu,llwn geneh. toih,de kai. avndrw/n Il.; du,o geneai. avnqrw,pwn Ib. 3. offspring, Orac. ap. Hdt.; and of a single person, Soph. II. of time or place in reference to birth: 1. a birth-place, geneh. evpi. li,mnh| Gugai,h| Il.; of an eagle's eyrie, Od. 2. age, time of life, esp. in phrases geneh/| new,tatoj( presbu,tatoj youngest, eldest, in age, or by birth, Hom. 3. time of birth, evk geneh/j Hdt.; avpo. g. Xen."​

Therefore, there can be no doubt that one of the meanings of the Greek word translated "generation" is "family" and it will now be demonstrated that "family" is the correct translation at Luke 21:32. Therefore, the correct translation in the following verse is this one:

"Verily I say unto you, This family (genea) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled" (Lk.21:32).​

The family refers to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The Lord Jesus' sermon foretold of the "great tribulation," a time when Israel will be attacked unmercifully in an attempt to destroy the whole family of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Therefore it would not be unusual for the Lord Jesus to assure them that they will not be wiped out and that they will continue to exist. Therefore, He told them that the family of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would still be in existence when He returned to the earth.

In fact, this is not the first time that such assurance had been given to the Israelites, as witnessed by these words:

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever" (Jer.31:35-36).​

According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the nation of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him. So there is nothing odd about the Lord Jesus telling the Israelites that "this family shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled," especially with the great tribulation in view.

Fail

 

[Danoh]

I do.
And one can see in scripture the ways in which "generation" is used contextually.

Just as one can see in scripture the ways in which "seed" is used contextually.
"Seed" is used for:

• a man's sperm (like when Onan spilled his seed on the ground - Gen 38)
• a child/offspring
• a plant pod planted for crop
• the word of GOD (Luke 8:11)

Likewise "generation" carries a variety of meanings.

When Jesus calls the unbelieving Israelites a generation of vipers (Matthew 23), He is referring to all the vipers of Israel throughout history.
We know this because when Jesus says "ye killed the prophets", he is not talking about just the folks living there at the time.
And He stresses the fact with accusing them of killing Zacharias, and Zacharias was not killed by the folks living at the time, but was killed long ago. (2Ch 24:20-21)

Matthew 23:35 KJV​

(35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.​

"ye" cannot refer to those living at the time.


And He goes on the express ....

(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!​

This is speaking of killing the prophets throughout history, and not just those living at the time.

Yep - their COLLECTIVE sin as A NATION.

It is in that sense that the phrase "this generation" refers to ALL their generations as ONE generation.

As in the movie The Dirty Dozen - where the sins of one of them (during their training) was visited upon all of them as one, as a means of teaching them that they were one and were to function as one, or face the consequences of one upon all.

See Daniel's prayer, in Daniel 9.

And...last I checked, Israel is still producing a people still in rebellion against the God of their fathers.

Is still producing one generation after another...of vipers.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Fail

It's your eyesight that is failing, son.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yep - their COLLECTIVE sin as A NATION.

It is in that sense that the phrase "this generation" refers to ALL their generations as ONE generation.

When the Scriptures speak of more than one "generation" it is translated as plural:

"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints" (Col.1:26).​

I am not aware of any place in the Scriptures where the word "generation" is used when speaking of more than one generation, are you?

Thanks!

 

[musterion]

First off all, are we to believe that the words "may be done" are questioning whether or not the things which the Lord said would happen might not happen?

So to translate those words in an understandable manner what do they say? This?:

That this generation may pass away until all these things may be done?

That doesn't make any sense to me. Would you mind giving it a try?

Thanks!

This just goes to show what is apparently the difficulty in trying to take those two elements into account. I can't tell you what the right way or the wrong way to translate the an particle and the subjunctive would be, but whoever did that translation apparently tried.

Had Israel repented, would that generation have seen all those things come to pass?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Had Israel repented, would that generation have seen all those things come to pass?

Yes, and in that case this would have been a viable translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt.24:34; KJV).​

But since Israel did not repent then I cannot see how that translation can be correct.

 

[musterion]

Yes, and in that case this would have been a viable translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt.24:34; KJV).​

But since Israel did not repent then I cannot see how that translation can be correct.

Which translation isn't correct, the KJ or the one I posted? Not arguing, just asking.