There is no Hell

Timotheos

New member
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

you have to exist to be punished

The eternal punishment IS the removal of their existence. How is eternal death NOT eternal or punishment?
Look at Matthew 25:46 again. Doesn't it say that only the righteous go into eternal life? If you are correct, then BOTH groups go into eternal life, one in heavenly bliss and the other in hellish torment. I would rather believe Jesus' words that only the "sheep" go into eternal life.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
The eternal punishment IS the removal of their existence. How is eternal death NOT eternal or punishment?
Look at Matthew 25:46 again. Doesn't it say that only the righteous go into eternal life? If you are correct, then BOTH groups go into eternal life, one in heavenly bliss and the other in hellish torment. I would rather believe Jesus' words that only the "sheep" go into eternal life.

oh-really-now.gif


more Illegitimate Totality Transfer of death

Mat_8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
 

rstrats

Active member
way 2 go,
re: "strawman"

How so?



re: "do you have an Illegitimate Totality Transfer of the definition of death?"

I have no idea what that means.




re: "Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life. you have to exist to be punished"

Agreed. But the dictionary defines punishment as "a penalty imposed on an offender for a crime or wrongdoing." For exmple; "your punishment is to be hung by the neck until dead". The result of the punishing (i.e., hanging) is death.

However, for some blood thirsty reason you want the unsaved to be tortured for eternity in the lake of fire. Therefore you interpret the phrase "eternal punishment" to mean "eternal torture" when it doesn't have to mean that.

Remember the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in the lake of fire. And since there is no scripture that says otherwise, I prefer to interpret "eternal punishment" to mean "eternal death". And death to mean "that the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). It fits in better with the nature of a loving and a just supreme being. Are we really to believe that sin is so repugnant to the supreme being, but everlasting torture isn't?
 

Timotheos

New member
more Illegitimate Totality Transfer of death

"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means"
Inigo Montoya

Can you define "death" in a way that means "To never ever die, but to have eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever"? Use it in a sentence. "My dog died when he got run over by a asphalt paver." What do you think happened to my dog? Do you think that my dog DIDN'T die when he was flattened by the rollers?
 

Timotheos

New member
you have to exist to be punished

THIS statement is where you are going wrong.
A person CAN be punished with NON-existence, and when this punishment lasts forever, it is an eternal punishment, no torture is required.

I think that you just WANT eternal conscious torment in hell to be true, no matter what the Bible says. I think that is why you argue so much for it. Is that true?
 

Timotheos

New member
dodge,
re: "They will change His word to what they want it to say NOT what it actually says."

And nowhere does it actually say that anyone will be given eternal life so that they can be tortured forever. Nevertheless, the ECT advocate for some blood thirsty reason wants it to say that, and so tries to interpret/twist scripture to that end.

They change God's word to make it say what they want it to say. The wages of sin is death, not eternal separation from God in eternal torment.
 

dodge

New member
They change God's word to make it say what they want it to say. The wages of sin is death, not eternal separation from God in eternal torment.





The preachers today are not faithfully preaching against sin, righteousness, judgment, and true repentance. You rarely ever hear them mention the word “Hell” in church or in their sermons but scripture is quite clear: hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment.

Jesus speaks on Hell and Destruction in Forty Six versus in the Bible.

Matthew 5:22
22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:29-30

[27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ 28but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. – editor]

29If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 7:13,19
13“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. …

19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 8:12
12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 10:28
28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 13:30
30Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Matthew 13:40
40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Matthew 13:42
42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50
49So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 18:8
8“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Matthew 18:9
9And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 22:13

13Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:51
51and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30
30And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46
46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 3:29
29but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation

Mark 9:43-48
43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched

44Where “their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched

46Where “their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire

48Where “their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

Luke 3:17
17His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 12:5
5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Luke 12:46-48
46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

John 5:29
29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 15:6
6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

* * *

Revelation 21:7-8

He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
 

dodge

New member
Hell is referred to 162 times in the New Testament, 70 of which came straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ
If you don't believe in Hell in this life, you will believe in the next life.
Deuteronomy 32:22 the Bible tells us Hell is where the anger of God is kindled.
Proverbs 15:24 says Hell is beneath us.
Proverbs 7:27 says Hell is a chamber of death.
Matthew 23:33 says Hell is a place of damnation.
Job 11:8 says Hell is deep.
Job 26:6 says Hell is a place of destruction.
Psalms 55:15 says Hell is down.
Isaiah 5:14 says Hell hath enlarged herself.
Matthew 25:46 says Hell is eternal.
Matthew 5:22 says that Hell is a place of fire.
Proverbs 27:20 says Hell is never full.
Matthew 16:18 says Hell is guarded by gates.
Ezekiel 31:17 says Hell is where the heathen go.
Psalm 86:13 says Hell is the lowest place.
Matthew 7:13 says Hell is where there will be a multitude.
Luke 16:24 says there is no water in Hell.
Psalms 116:3 says there will be pain in Hell
Isaiah 14:15 says Hell is a pit.
Matthew 25:41 says Hell was created for the Devil and his angels.
Matthew 24:46 says Hell is a place of punishment.
2nd Thessalonians 1:9 says Hell is a place separated from God.
2nd Samuel 22:6 says Hell is a place of sorrows.
Luke 16:23 says Hell is a place of torment.
Mark 9:43 says Hell is a place of unquenchable fire.
Psalms 9:17 says Hell is the home of the wicked.
Mark 9:44 says Hell is where the worm dieth not.
Revelation 21:8 says Hell is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 says Hell is a place that burns with fire and brimstone.
2nd Thessalonians 1:8 says that God pours out His vengeance with fire on Christ-rejecters in Hell.
Hell is taught in the Bible!!! Hell is a real place. Hell was made as a super torture-chamber for non-human beings. Hell was not made for mankind, but for devilkind. Hell was formed for demonic entities. Yet, the Bible warns that when Adam sinned, he opened the floodgate of sin upon the world (Romans 5:12). We are all sinners by birth and by choice! Rust cannot break through the locks of Hell's gates! There is no escaping the damnation of Hell once you get there. Are you willing to gamble your eternal destiny on some false religion?

http://www.jesusisprecious.org/hell/forever.htm
 

CherubRam

New member
Luke 16 is a Pagan insertion. We can know that as a matter of fact because, it disagrees with the Old Testament and Orthodox Judaism. Luke 16 is most certainly not the words of Christ.
 

CherubRam

New member
DODGE

You have been told a great many times that the word HELL is not in the original text. Are you deaf and blind?
 

Timotheos

New member




The preachers today are not faithfully preaching against sin, righteousness, judgment, and true repentance. You rarely ever hear them mention the word “Hell” in church or in their sermons but scripture is quite clear: hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment.

Jesus speaks on Hell and Destruction in Forty Six versus in the Bible.

Matthew 5:22
22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:29-30

[27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ 28but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. – editor]

29If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 7:13,19
13“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. …

19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 8:12
12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 10:28
28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 13:30
30Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Matthew 13:40
40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Matthew 13:42
42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50
49So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 18:8
8“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Matthew 18:9
9And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 22:13

13Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:51
51and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30
30And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46
46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 3:29
29but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation

Mark 9:43-48
43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched

44Where “their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched

46Where “their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire

48Where “their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

Luke 3:17
17His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 12:5
5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Luke 12:46-48
46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

John 5:29
29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 15:6
6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

* * *

Revelation 21:7-8

He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

You need to take a closer look at the verses you used to justify eternal torment in hell. A good many of them specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed and burnt up, while NONE of them state that the wicked will receive eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever while they are dead.

How can you take a verse that says the way is wide that leads to destruction and use it to attempt to prove that there is no destruction? That seems odd.
 

Timotheos

New member
–Jesus speaks on Hell and Destruction in Forty Six versus in the Bible.
Jesus never said "Hell" since "Hell" is an English word and the Bible wasn't written in English. The words the Bible use which are (mis)translated "Hell" are Gehenna (a valley outside Jerusalem), Sheol (a term meaning a place where all of the dead go, and Hades (a Greek translation of Sheol).

I agree with Gehenna as a place of destruction, but not with hell as a place of eternal conscious torment. Eternal life is a gift from God given to those who put their faith in Him. In order for a person to be tormented for all eternity, they would also have to inherit eternal life, and the Bible is clear that the wicked do not inherit eternal life.

The Bottom line is that Jesus Himself said "Fear the one who is able to DESTROY both body and soul in Gehenna." If there really is eternal conscious torment in hell, then Jesus Christ was wrong that the body and souls of those who are sent to Gehenna will be destroyed. Do those of you who believe in Hell really believe that Jesus Christ got this wrong? Do you think that you can teach Jesus Christ the truth about Hell?
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
re: "strawman"
And nowhere does it actually say that anyone will be given eternal life so that they can be tortured forever.
How so?

strawman ; the spiritually dead need to be given eternal life:nono:

alive yet dead
Mat_8:22 But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead

re: "do you have an Illegitimate Totality Transfer of the definition of death?"

I have no idea what that means.
Illegitimate Totality Transfer simply means to illegitimately ( wrongly) transfer a word’s total possible meaning, with all its variations and nuances, and forcing them all into a particular context.

3 definitions not 1
there is physical death Joh 19:30
there is spiritual death Rom 7:9
there is death as a place Rev 20:14


re: "Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life. you have to exist to be punished"

Agreed. But the dictionary defines punishment as "a penalty imposed on an offender for a crime or wrongdoing." For exmple; "your punishment is to be hung by the neck until dead". The result of the punishing (i.e., hanging) is death.
the duration in your example is until physically dead

and the duration of the punishment God is handing out is everlasting



However, for some blood thirsty reason you want the unsaved to be tortured for eternity in the lake of fire. Therefore you interpret the phrase "eternal punishment" to mean "eternal torture" when it doesn't have to mean that.

it means eternal punishment and we know it is in a lake of fire

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Remember the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in the lake of fire. And since there is no scripture that says otherwise, I prefer to interpret "eternal punishment" to mean "eternal death". And death to mean "that the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

your Illegitimate Totality Transfer of the definition of death


the wages of sin is death
Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.


It fits in better with the nature of a loving and a just supreme being. Are we really to believe that sin is so repugnant to the supreme being, but everlasting torture isn't?

Jesus died because it is eternal punishment
if not
our own physical death would be enough and it is not
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means"
Inigo Montoya

Illegitimate Totality Transfer simply means to illegitimately ( wrongly) transfer a word’s total possible meaning, with all its variations and nuances, and forcing them all into a particular context.

you have 1 definition of death which by definition is
Illegitimate Totality Transfer

here are 3
there is physical death Joh 19:30
there is spiritual death Rom 7:9
there is death as a place Rev 20:14

Can you define "death" in a way that means "To never ever die, but to have eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever"? Use it in a sentence. "My dog died when he got run over by a asphalt paver." What do you think happened to my dog? Do you think that my dog DIDN'T die when he was flattened by the rollers?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,
and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
 

Timotheos

New member
Illegitimate Totality Transfer simply means to illegitimately ( wrongly) transfer a word’s total possible meaning, with all its variations and nuances, and forcing them all into a particular context.

you have 1 definition of death which by definition is
Illegitimate Totality Transfer

here are 3
there is physical death Joh 19:30
there is spiritual death Rom 7:9
there is death as a place Rev 20:14



Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,
and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

None of that proves that Perish DOES NOT mean perish. That is not what ITT means.
None of that proves that Destroy does not mean destroy.
None of that proves that "The wicked will be no more" does not mean "the wicked will be no more".

You are attempting to summon up one minor sub definition of one word and you are attempting to make the word ONLY mean that one subdefinition regardless of the context. You are committing the error of Illegitimate Totality Transfer. When the Bible says "The wicked will be no more", it cannot possibly mean "the wicked will continue to exist forever." Why don't you just accept what the Bible says? The wicked will perish, they will be no more, the wages of sin is death, and the penalty that the wicked pay is eternal destruction. This is precisely what the Bible says. But the Bible never once says that the wicked will be given eternal life so that they can go to hell when they die where they will live forever in constant torment.
 

Timotheos

New member
Eternal torture is something to look forward to

IF eternal torture WERE true, and if I were sent to be eternally tortured, I would spend that eternity knowing that God is unjust. Genesis 18:25 (ESV) Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just? I think that He will. So eternal torture in Hell is untrue, not only because it contradicts what the Bible says, but because eternal torture is inherently UNJUST, and God is inherently JUST.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
IF eternal torture WERE true, and if I were sent to be eternally tortured, I would spend that eternity knowing that God is unjust. Genesis 18:25 (ESV) Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just? I think that He will. So eternal torture in Hell is untrue, not only because it contradicts what the Bible says, but because eternal torture is inherently UNJUST, and God is inherently JUST.


I agree with you Tim
 
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