The Wrath of God

[clefty]

The way it looks is that Robert Pate is going to find out the hard way.

I did notice that you are as so many, and that is that you are afraid to say you believed and obeyed to get saved.

We have to believe and repent of our sins when we want to be saved.

It is not shameful and it is not the 'not of by works' Paul speaks of.

Paul is speaking of the works of the law which are the purification/ceremonial works.

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

Faith alone is mentioned one time in the KJV, and it is to tell us what kind of faith not to have.

That dead faith is not saving faith, it really is dead.

Yes this is a tricky part to unpack...our choice...

I liken it to “What did Adam do to be created?” NOTHING...he merely had to acknowledge he was and by Whom or reject it and believe he just came to be as a part of a evolutionary process...or aliens or...so it goes...

That Adam chose to believe was because he already was...it was provided to him to be...

And believing that it compelled him to be grateful and obey and oh wait...it should have...lol

The same is with us...Salvation was provided before I was born...I must simply accept it...

Which means of course “work” on my part is necessitated to understand my need for salvation and from whence it comes and take the chance to believe that it is provided by Him...no small task is true...but no one can come to Him lest the Father draws Him...

As a result of this “work” of understanding and choosing I of course wish and want and desire to not only accept but share my gratitude with Him who provided and others...and so I am compelled do what the “owners manual” expects for this temple to do in order to perform optimally in this condition...

Just like Adam after acknowledging His Creator’s creative act obeyed...(should have)

We too do because we are...we are because we believe...

The baby does not breathe to become alive...the baby breathes because it already is alive...

That was the original plan...original default was Adam would obey because he was created to wish to do so...we are merely on a detour...we were given a map and have a Guide...just gotta chose and persevere

 

[clefty]

The book of Titus offers understanding as to what manner of faith life the rightous/just live by.

And the ones who don’t:

“They profess to know God but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient and disqualified for every good work” Titus 1:8

 

[Robert Pate]

The book of Titus offers understanding as to what manner of faith life the rightous/just live by.

And the ones who don’t:

“They profess to know God but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient and disqualified for every good work” Titus 1:8

Your emphasis on your works is a concern. Your emphasis should be on what Christ has accomplished in your name and on your behalf. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners, which you and GT are one of. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ. We are accepted only in him.

 

[clefty]

Your emphasis on your works is a concern. Your emphasis should be on what Christ has accomplished in your name and on your behalf. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners, which you and GT are one of. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ. We are accepted only in him.

Not only are you lying...adding to the word or taking away from it...but you are trying to make Him a liar too when He clearly taught “In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.” Matt 5:16

Him...not even Peter or Paul or James but the One you claim you are in...

And your rejection of good works is stealing Glory to be given to the Father in heaven for what together with His Son and Holy Spirit did for you...

“Here are they” says John “who keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF Yahushua His Son”...

But I guess he is a liar too...

 

[God's Truth]

Yes this is a tricky part to unpack...our choice...

I liken it to “What did Adam do to be created?” NOTHING...

Having nothing to do with being created has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

he merely had to acknowledge he was and by Whom or reject it and believe he just came to be as a part of a evolutionary process...or aliens or...so it goes...

I am not sure about everything you said.

That Adam chose to believe was because he already was...it was provided to him to be...

And believing that it compelled him to be grateful and obey and oh wait...it should have...lol

Right? lol

The same is with us...Salvation was provided before I was born...I must simply accept it...

We have to accept it; and what are we to accept? We are to accept that Jesus is the Way and we do what he says to be saved.

Which means of course “work” on my part is necessitated to understand my need for salvation and from whence it comes and take the chance to believe that it is provided by Him...no small task is true...but no one can come to Him lest the Father draws Him...

The Bible says God draws all.

As a result of this “work” of understanding and choosing I of course wish and want and desire to not only accept but share my gratitude with Him who provided and others...and so I am compelled do what the “owners manual” expects for this temple to do in order to perform optimally in this condition...

Just like Adam after acknowledging His Creator’s creative act obeyed...(should have)

We too do because we are...we are because we believe...

The baby does not breathe to become alive...the baby breathes because it already is alive...

That was the original plan...original default was Adam would obey because he was created to wish to do so...we are merely on a detour...we were given a map and have a Guide...just gotta chose and persevere

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone. The works we do not have to do are the ceremonial works.

Jesus' words are life and we have to do what he says. He says he saves those who obey him.

I can give you scripture references for everything I said.

 

[clefty]

Having nothing to do with being created has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

fine...you don’t see it? How about we did nothing to be be conceived? We were made alive before we accept it and understood that we were...same as being reborn...

I am not sure about everything you said.

is ok...working it out

We have to accept it;

well, what I mean is to LIVE we must breathe...we dont have to breathe though...

But I wish to illustrate we were alive before we breathed...just as we are saved before we acknowlege it...and we don’t HAVE to acknowledge it unless we wish to live forever

and what are we to accept? We are to accept that Jesus is the Way and we do what he says to be saved.

yes...but I accept it given with a more accurate name...and that the Way includes more than what is traditionally thought He said we must do to be be saved and certainly stay saved...

The Bible says God draws all.

He loved the world...wishes none to be lost... His Son said IF He be lifted up He draws all man

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

yes agreed

The works we do not have to do are the ceremonial works.

disagree...the need to shed blood for the remission of sin is fulfilled...the laws against us in ordinances is nailed to the cross...the penalties and debt has been paid...so for instance a woman and man caught in adultery no longer must be stoned...but go and sin no more...judgement comets

But others such as dietary and festivals are recorded as kept...that Paul taught abolishment of the law is a continuation of jewish false witness...

Jesus' words are life and we have to do what he says. He says he saves those who obey him.

and accepting Him/His is indeed only part of what we must do to be saved...and yes obedience is to remain yes...and repentance when we fail to...

I can give you scripture references for everything I said.

maybe...best to try and stick to it for sure

 

[Robert Pate]

Not only are you lying...adding to the word or taking away from it...but you are trying to make Him a liar too when He clearly taught “In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.” Matt 5:16

Him...not even Peter or Paul or James but the One you claim you are in...

And your rejection of good works is stealing Glory to be given to the Father in heaven for what together with His Son and Holy Spirit did for you...

“Here are they” says John “who keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF Yahushua His Son”...

But I guess he is a liar too...

The Colossians, like you, were glorying in their works and their Christian lives. What did Paul say to them that deflate their egos?

"For you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God" Colossians 3:3.

 

[clefty]

The Colossians, like you, were glorying in their works and their Christian lives. What did Paul say to them that deflate their egos?

"For you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God" Colossians 3:3.

Let’s read the context to clearly understand the change between before and after becoming in Him:

If then you were araised with Christ, seek those things which are above, bwhere Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the cearth. 3 dFor you died, eand your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 fWhen Christ who is gour life appears, then you also will appear with Him in hglory.
5 iTherefore put to death jyour members which are on the earth: kfornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, lwhich is idolatry. 6 mBecause of these things the wrath of God is coming upon nthe sons of disobedience, 7 oin which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 pBut now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who qis renewed in knowledge raccording to the image of Him who screated him, 11 where there is neither tGreek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, ubut Christ is all and in all.

And you wish to claim no change occurs...

 

[Robert Pate]

Let’s read the context to clearly understand the change between before and after becoming in Him:

If then you were araised with Christ, seek those things which are above, bwhere Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the cearth. 3 dFor you died, eand your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 fWhen Christ who is gour life appears, then you also will appear with Him in hglory.
5 iTherefore put to death jyour members which are on the earth: kfornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, lwhich is idolatry. 6 mBecause of these things the wrath of God is coming upon nthe sons of disobedience, 7 oin which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 pBut now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who qis renewed in knowledge raccording to the image of Him who screated him, 11 where there is neither tGreek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, ubut Christ is all and in all.

And you wish to claim no change occurs...

We have to remember that Paul was talking to saved people and to unsaved people. It is the unsaved that need the law, not the saved. The saved are already indwelt with the Holy Spirit and are led by the Spirit. Paul said that the law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, Galatians 3:24. But after faith has come we are no longer under the schoolmaster (the law) Galatians 3:25. After faith is come we live by the Spirit and not the law, Galatians 3:27.

 

[clefty]

We have to remember that Paul was talking to saved people and to unsaved people. It is the unsaved that need the law, not the saved. The saved are already indwelt with the Holy Spirit and are led by the Spirit.

the saved we know are led because they do the Law...live just as He did...

The Law remains as it is keeps us IN HIM...you wish to do away with law...then you have no legal right to be adopted grafted part of His people...you are lawless...

Paul said that the law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, Galatians 3:24. But after faith has come we are no longer under the schoolmaster (the law) Galatians 3:25.

tell me something...when you were in grammar school were you not taught 2 + 2 = 4? Yes? Good...now tell me when you graduated and now no longer need the school master is 2 + 2 STILL 4? Of course and out in the adult world it cannot be anything else or you will need a schooling again...same with this...the Law is now IN OUR HEARTS AND MINDS...nothing changed nothing abolished...

After faith is come we live by the Spirit and not the law, Galatians 3:27.

Why would the Spirit want us not to keep it?

Here are they that keep the commandments and the FAITH OF...live His Faith life Robert...that is the gospel...you CAN for what He did and does for you...

You need that law to BE IN HIM just as much as the sinner...more so actually...sinners dont care to be...you do

 

[Robert Pate]

the saved we know are led because they do the Law...live just as He did...

The Law remains as it is keeps us IN HIM...you wish to do away with law...then you have no legal right to be adopted grafted part of His people...you are lawless...



tell me something...when you were in grammar school were you not taught 2 + 2 = 4? Yes? Good...now tell me when you graduated and now no longer need the school master is 2 + 2 STILL 4? Of course and out in the adult world it cannot be anything else or you will need a schooling again...same with this...the Law is now IN OUR HEARTS AND MINDS...nothing changed nothing abolished...



Why would the Spirit want us not to keep it?

Here are they that keep the commandments and the FAITH OF...live His Faith life Robert...that is the gospel...you CAN for what He did and does for you...

You need that law to BE IN HIM just as much as the sinner...more so actually...sinners dont care to be...you do

The law does not cause you to be "In Christ" if anything the law and religion will drive you away from Christ and into yourself who is a sinner. This is where you are at now.

You need to go outside of yourself to someone that is greater than yourself. The law is very subjective because it is about you and your religion. The Gospel is about Christ and his work of redemption that was done on your behalf that justified you. The law does not justify, the law condemns.

This is why Paul said, "The letter (law) kills, but the Spirit gives life" 2 Corinthians 3:6.

Religion, law keeping, is like living in a box. While living by the Spirit is joy and freedom. Living by law is living under judgment and condemnation. You might have to find that out in the judgment.

 

[beloved57]

The law does not cause you to be "In Christ" if anything the law and religion will drive you away from Christ and into yourself who is a sinner. This is where you are at now.

You need to go outside of yourself to someone that is greater than yourself. The law is very subjective because it is about you and your religion. The Gospel is about Christ and his work of redemption that was done on your behalf that justified you. The law does not justify, the law condemns.

This is why Paul said, "The letter (law) kills, but the Spirit gives life" 2 Corinthians 3:6.

Religion, law keeping, is like living in a box. While living by the Spirit is joy and freedom. Living by law is living under judgment and condemnation. You might have to find that out in the judgment.

Look who is talking, you teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost until they do something, into yourself !

 

[Robert Pate]

Look who is talking, you teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost until they do something, into yourself !

Your response to the Gospel is no response, which will bring judgment and condemnation on yourself.

 

[clefty]

The law does not cause you to be "In Christ"

the law of adoption sure does...its a covenant how can you miss that? Seriously

if anything the law and religion will drive you away from Christ and into yourself who is a sinner. This is where you are at now.

boo hoo gravity made me fall is not what I am saying at all...the Law point to Him my salvation...it warns of the wrath to come if not IN HIM my obedience allows His BLOOD to hide me...BY LAW

You need to go outside of yourself to someone that is greater than yourself. The law is very subjective because it is about you and your religion.

LOL...subject to interpretation maybe but I did not write this Law it is HIS given to me...this LAW is HIS FAITH by which He lived as we too are to live...

The Gospel is about Christ and his work of redemption that was done on your behalf that justified you. The law does not justify, the law condemns.[/qoute] is why I am grateful for what He did and wish to please Him to protect me from His Father’s wrath...

This is why Paul said, "The letter (law) kills, but the Spirit gives life" 2 Corinthians 3:6.

do we destroy this Law by our faith? NOPE we establish it...

Religion, law keeping, is like living in a box.

really His religion His faith walk the One established to save and preserve...do this and LIVE...you really are adding and removing things in an accursable manner here...

While living by the Spirit is joy and freedom.

becuase you are keeping the LAW duh

Living by law is living under judgment and condemnation. You might have to find that out in the judgment.

All that live will be under judgement and condemnation some unto death some unto life...the Law remains...

Threatening me with what you dont believe exists...the irony...

 

[Robert Pate]

the law of adoption sure does...its a covenant how can you miss that? Seriously

boo hoo gravity made me fall is not what I am saying at all...the Law point to Him my salvation...it warns of the wrath to come if not IN HIM my obedience allows His BLOOD to hide me...BY LAW

LOL...subject to interpretation maybe but I did not write this Law it is HIS given to me...this LAW is HIS FAITH by which He lived as we too are to live...

The Gospel is about Christ and his work of redemption that was done on your behalf that justified you. The law does not justify, the law condemns.[/qoute] is why I am grateful for what He did and wish to please Him to protect me from His Father’s wrath...

do we destroy this Law by our faith? NOPE we establish it...

really His religion His faith walk the One established to save and preserve...do this and LIVE...you really are adding and removing things in an accursable manner here...

becuase you are keeping the LAW duh



All that live will be under judgement and condemnation some unto death some unto life...the Law remains...

Threatening me with what you dont believe exists...the irony...

The Bible is the only thing that we have to go by.

The Bible explicitly says that the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 8:6, 7. 2 Corinthians 3:13. Not to mention that God destroyed the Holy of Holies while Jesus was dying on the cross, Matthew 27:51. Your Jewish religion is obsolete because "The Just Shall Live By Faith" and not by laws, rules or religion.

 

[clefty]

the law of adoption sure does...its a covenant how can you miss that? Seriously

boo hoo gravity made me fall is not what I am saying at all...the Law point to Him my salvation...it warns of the wrath to come if not IN HIM my obedience allows His BLOOD to hide me...BY LAW

LOL...subject to interpretation maybe but I did not write this Law it is HIS given to me...this LAW is HIS FAITH by which He lived as we too are to live...




The Bible is the only thing that we have to go by.

The Bible explicitly says that the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 8:6, 7. 2 Corinthians 3:13. Not to mention that God destroyed the Holy of Holies while Jesus was dying on the cross, Matthew 27:51. Your Jewish religion is obsolete because "The Just Shall Live By Faith" and not by laws, rules or religion.

“...do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who DOES good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.” 3 John 11

 

[clefty]

“The Bible is the only thing that we have to go by.”

And it ends with the book of revelations the 22 chapter.

There are some red letter texts back here:

Rev 22: 12

And behold I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me to give to every one according to his work”

John follows up His promise with

Verse 14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters and whoever loves and practices a lie.”

So well there ya go...all we got is the Bible and here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith OF His son...

The end result, conclusion, of living by faith...

His faith which you disdain is my obsolete jewish religion...these laws and rules of His faith give one the RIGHT to the tree of life...

Again you said: “Your jewish religion is obsolete because “the Just Shall Live By Faith” and not by laws rules or religion.”

You completely miss that “the Just shall live by faith” IS the OT covenant...

As for Paul...

Was reminded of this text, and you should be too:

2 Cor 5: 9-10 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we must ALL appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[God's Truth]

fine...you don’t see it? How about we did nothing to be be conceived? We were made alive before we accept it and understood that we were...same as being reborn...


is ok...working it out


well, what I mean is to LIVE we must breathe...we dont have to breathe though...

But I wish to illustrate we were alive before we breathed...just as we are saved before we acknowlege it...and we don’t HAVE to acknowledge it unless we wish to live forever

I do understand what you mean.
I just don't agree because Jesus says plainly to obey his teachings then he will live in you.

yes...but I accept it given with a more accurate name...and that the Way includes more than what is traditionally thought He said we must do to be be saved and certainly stay saved...

Really? That is interesting; like what?

He loved the world...wishes none to be lost... His Son said IF He be lifted up He draws all man

He was lifted up and draws all, but many resist.

yes agreed

disagree...the need to shed blood for the remission of sin is fulfilled...the laws against us in ordinances is nailed to the cross...the penalties and debt has been paid...so for instance a woman and man caught in adultery no longer must be stoned...but go and sin no more...judgement comets

But others such as dietary and festivals are recorded as kept...that Paul taught abolishment of the law is a continuation of jewish false witness...

Jesus told the disciples to do what the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to do because they sat in Moses' seat and enforced the law. Jesus also said that the temple would be destroyed. That is proof that the purification works of the law would be no more one day, and they were worthless when it came to salvation.

The dietary law was another on cleaning oneself and the observance of special days were all about Jesus. Jesus is our Sabbath Rest and he makes us clean no matter what our diet is.

and accepting Him/His is indeed only part of what we must do to be saved...and yes obedience is to remain yes...and repentance when we fail to...

I agree.

maybe...best to try and stick to it for sure

That is for sure.

 

[beloved57]

Your response to the Gospel is no response, which will bring judgment and condemnation on yourself.

You are playing the hypocrite, condemning others for salvation by works and you teach and believe salvation by works !

 

[beloved57]

the law of adoption sure does...its a covenant how can you miss that? Seriously

boo hoo gravity made me fall is not what I am saying at all...the Law point to Him my salvation...it warns of the wrath to come if not IN HIM my obedience allows His BLOOD to hide me...BY LAW

LOL...subject to interpretation maybe but I did not write this Law it is HIS given to me...this LAW is HIS FAITH by which He lived as we too are to live...




The Bible is the only thing that we have to go by.

The Bible explicitly says that the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 8:6, 7. 2 Corinthians 3:13. Not to mention that God destroyed the Holy of Holies while Jesus was dying on the cross, Matthew 27:51. Your Jewish religion is obsolete because "The Just Shall Live By Faith" and not by laws, rules or religion.

You dont live by Faith, you dont even believe Jesus Blood saved them He died for !