ECT The worm

[jamie]

Paul claimed an ABUNDANCE of REVELATION from God. But I guess that you're like many that agree with the silly idea that the risen and ascended Lord Jesus Christ called Paul to tell him the same things already revealed to the 12. That's just ignorance.

I with those who prove all things from scripture.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul never spoke against the law to those who were under the law, but Gentiles were not under the law and Paul told them so.

Paul never spoke against the law PERIOD.

Acts 21:20-25 And when they heard it they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed and they are all zealous for the law, but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. Therefore do what we tell you, we have four men who have taken a vow. Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Do you have a point? Which Gentiles are these? You do know that there is more then one kind of Gentile, right?

 

[dodge]

I suggest that you understand the Bible rightly divided instead of incorrectly mashing it into a mess.

We do NOT claim that GRACE is new.... only that God has TWO realms that He has plans for and that they are NOT identical plans (though they are are eventually JOINED together INTO one).

Eph 1:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: ​

Do you think that NOW is the "dispensation of the fullness of times"? Paul puts it in the future, so it did not happen at the cross.

Could Israel have claimed to NOT to do the works that God gave them and just claim grace?

Who said that there is "neither Jew nor Greek"? Oh, right... that was Paul. This statement was made about the church which is His body.... you will NOT find that in the preaching of Peter and the other circumcision apostles. You will NOT find that on the day of Pentecost when Peter was preaching to Israel.

You are so stuck on your churchianity tradition that you cannot see the scripture clearly.

Why is it I rarely if ever see Madist quote Jesus ? Do you think Paul's message was different than Jesus message ?

FYI, Jesus is the way to salvation NOT PAUL.

To become a MAD follower I would have to ignore or change the teachings of Jesus, the Apostles , and the prophets.

There was never , not now, or will EVER be two paths to salvation.

There are not 2 doors to salvation JUST one as taught by Jesus. One either goes in by Jesus or they don't go to heaven.

MAD has divided and made separate paths for salvation that Jesus nor ANY Apostle ( including PAUL ) ever taught.

Your beliefs separate the Jews and Gentiles , and creates 2 salvation paths when Jesus , the Apostles, and Prophets taught there is ONE. You are deceived, sadly.

Jesus taught the gospel of Grace- the Apostles received the Gospel of Grace and taught the Gospel of Grace that JESUS died for.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

There was never , not now, or will EVER be two paths to salvation.

All men who will ever be saved, are saved by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ...in this, you are correct.

 

[dodge]

All men who will ever be saved, are saved by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ...in this, you are correct.

STP, I have been reading and studying MAD for a short time. Help me out with this.

Do those who believe MAD believe that the Jews must be saved through works and grace while the gentiles are saved through grace alone ? Everything I have read seems to go back to this premise to support the more than one gospel belief.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

STP, I have been reading and studying MAD for a short time. Help me out with this.

Do those who believe MAD believe that the Jews must be saved through works and grace while the gentiles are saved through grace alone. Everything I have read seems to go back to this premise to support the more than one gospel belief.

I am a MAD wacko myself, here's the deal:


For everyone in the Bible, except the Body of Christ: faith + works unto grace at the end. Saved by grace.
For the Body of Christ: Grace now through the faith of Christ. Saved by grace.

Same LORD, same cross, same blood, different people, different purpose, different timing, different inheritance. But all are in Christ.

 

[dodge]

I am a MAD wacko myself, here's the deal:


For everyone in the Bible, except the Body of Christ: faith + works unto grace at the end. Saved by grace.
For the Body of Christ: Grace now through the faith of Christ. Saved by grace.

Same LORD, same cross, same blood, different people, different purpose, different timing, different inheritance. But all are in Christ.

Stp, Lets agree to disagree as Christians.

Does not Eph 2:8,9 apply to everyone ? I see no distinction between groups in that scripture.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If some have to perform grace+works what are the works they must do to have grace ? If they don't have the works does that remove or negate God's grace if they have trusted in God's payment for their sin i.e. they have followed and trusted Jesus ?

P.S. I am not trying to be argumentative I am trying to understand the distinctions made by MAD.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If some have to perform grace+works what are the works they must do to have grace ? If they don't have the works does that remove or negate God's grace if they have trusted in God's payment for their sin i.e. they have followed and trusted Jesus ?

Brother dodge,

It's faith + works .....unto Grace (at the end)

1 Peter 1
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;



The works they were supposed to do can be found throughout the 4 gospels, and early Acts.


:e4e:

 

[Right Divider]

Why is it I rarely if ever see Madist quote Jesus ? Do you think Paul's message was different than Jesus message ?

FYI, Jesus is the way to salvation NOT PAUL.

You KEEP making this false accusation. Jesus called Paul. Paul's scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The fact that you cannot tells the difference between what God inspired Paul to write and what God inspired the other apostles to write is your problem.

To become a MAD follower I would have to ignore or change the teachings of Jesus, the Apostles , and the prophets.

NONSENSE.... just another in the LONG list a false accusations made against those that take God at His Word.

There was never , not now, or will EVER be two paths to salvation.

False accusation #10 million.

There are not 2 doors to salvation JUST one as taught by Jesus. One either goes in by Jesus or they don't go to heaven.

MAD has divided and made separate paths for salvation that Jesus nor ANY Apostle ( including PAUL ) ever taught.

Your beliefs separate the Jews and Gentiles , and creates 2 salvation paths when Jesus , the Apostles, and Prophets taught there is ONE. You are deceived, sadly.

Jesus taught the gospel of Grace- the Apostles received the Gospel of Grace and taught the Gospel of Grace that JESUS died for.

Everything in this post is utter NONSENSE. Get a grip.

P.S. You clearly do not see why God chose Israel and why He created the body of Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

Brother dodge,

It's faith + works .....unto Grace (at the end)

1 Peter 1
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

The works they were supposed to do can be found throughout the 4 gospels, and early Acts.

:e4e:

It does make you wonder why some just refuse to see important details in the scripture and just want to broad-brush everything.

Rom 11:5-6 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (11:6) And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. ​

Details...details...details...

Paul is frequently, if not constantly, expressing time elements.... and distinctions.

 

[dodge]

Right Divider;4804985]You KEEP making this false accusation. Jesus called Paul. Paul's scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

As is every writer of scripture in the bible inspred by the Holy Spirit.

Are you NOT ignoring John 2:8,9 ?

If some have to be saved through works+grace then the Apostle John got it wrong, and I do NOT believe he did.

The fact that you cannot tells the difference between what God inspired Paul to write and what God inspired the other apostles to write is your problem.

Hello ! They all taught that salvation was through Jesus by faith in grace.

NONSENSE.... just another in the LONG list a false accusations made against those that take God at His Word.

So you believe John 2:8,9 is wrong then ?

False accusation #10 million.

I am NOT the one trying to convince folks that there are two different gospels that would be Madist.

Everything in this post is utter NONSENSE. Get a grip.

Your opinion is noted. You follow Paul ( and that is good if you are following Paul as he followed Jesus ), the Roman catholics' follow a pope and others follow Joseph Smith; however, Christians follow Jesus.

P.S. You clearly do not see why God chose Israel and why He created the body of Christ.

I see enough to know that MAD is NOT what scripture teaches.

The end game was to show His creation the TRUTH that sin kills and grace saves. You know chose you this day whom you will serve as for me and my family we will serve the Lord.

 

[Right Divider]

As is every writer of scripture in the bible inspred by the Holy Spirit.

You were complaining that I/we were not quoting the Jesus while He was the minister of the circumcision!

Rom 15:8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers: ​

I was quoting Paul who is an inspired scripture writer.... what is the problem with quoting Paul who is inspired by the Holy Spirit and writes about the revelation that the risen and ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave to him?

Do you think that you are a Jew under the law?

Gal 4:4-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (4:5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. ​

Is this how you follow Jesus? As a Jew under the law?

Are you NOT ignoring John 2:8,9 ?

If some have to be saved through works+grace then the Apostle John got it wrong, and I do NOT believe he did.

What does that have to do with anything?

John 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:8) And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare [it]. (2:9) When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew; ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
​

Hello ! They all taught that salvation was through Jesus by faith in grace.

Hello!

Acts 3:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:19) ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (3:20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. ​

So you believe John 2:8,9 is wrong then ?

Once again, what is the relevance of that to the discussion here?

I am NOT the one trying to convince folks that there are two different gospels that would be Madist.

There are more than two gospels mentioned in the scripture. Gospel simply means "good news".

Your opinion is noted. You follow Paul ( and that is good if you are following Paul as he followed Jesus ), the Roman catholics' follow a pope and others follow Joseph Smith; however, Christians follow Jesus.

Indeed, I do follow Paul as HE followed Christ. Not as a member of Israel but as a member of His body church where there is neither Jew NOR Greek.

2Cor 5:16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. ​

I see enough to know that MAD is NOT what scripture teaches.

The end game was to show His creation the TRUTH that sin kills and grace saves. You know chose you this day whom you will serve as for me and my family we will serve the Lord.

I hope that someday you'll grow up and see the truth that is clearly shown in the scripture.

 

[dodge]

Right Divider;4805026]You were complaining that I/we were not quoting the Jesus while He was the minister of the circumcision!

Rom 15:8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers: ​

Lets disregard everything Jesus and the other Apostles taught and take completely out of context what Jesus, the Apostles and prophets taught, and pay 100% attention to what Paul taught Paul taught is all I see Madist doing.

I was quoting Paul who is an inspired scripture writer.... what is the problem with quoting Paul who is inspired by the Holy Spirit and writes about the revelation that the risen and ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave to him?

No problem quoting Paul ! The problem is ignoring everyone else including what Jesus taught and making Paul the ONLY one you put any trust in.

Do you think that you are a Jew under the law?

Gal 4:4-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (4:5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. ​

Is this how you follow Jesus? As a Jew under the law?

Not even close. EVERYONE gentile and Jew are under GRACE if they trust God.

What does that have to do with anything?

John 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:8) And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare [it]. (2:9) When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew; ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
​

I corrected that it was supposed to be Ephesians 2:8,9. Sorry.

Madist claim that some are saved by grace through faith while others are saved through grace + works, and I asked if you believe the Apostle John got it wrong ?

John said:

Ephesians 2:8–9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

So did John get it wrong in your opinion ?

There are more than two gospels mentioned in the scripture. Gospel simply means "good news".

Not according to scripture:

Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

There is ONLY ONE gospel.

I hope that someday you'll grow up and see the truth that is clearly shown in the scripture.

I pray we ALL see the truth of God as Jesus taught His Apostles and disciples.

 

[DAN P]

Lets disregard everything Jesus and the other Apostles taught and take completely out of context what Jesus, the Apostles and prophets taught, and pay 100% attention to what Paul taught Paul taught is all I see Madist doing.






No problem quoting Paul ! The problem is ignoring everyone else including what Jesus taught and making Paul the ONLY one you put any trust in.




Not even close. EVERYONE gentile and Jew are under GRACE if they trust God.

I corrected that it was supposed to be Ephesians 2:8,9. Sorry.

Madist claim that some are saved by grace through faith while others are saved through grace + works, and I asked if you believe the Apostle John got it wrong ?

John said:

Ephesians 2:8–9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

So did John get it wrong in your opinion ?




Not according to scripture:

Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

There is ONLY ONE gospel.





I pray we ALL see the truth of God as Jesus taught His Apostles and disciples.

Hi Right Divider , and you SPANKED HIM with Rom 15:8 , where Jesus ministry is to the CIRCUMCISION and that says that there CONTRADICTIONS , and just disregare Rom 15:8 , did a good verse !!

dan p

 

[dodge]

Lets disregard everything Jesus and the other Apostles taught and take completely out of context what Jesus, the Apostles and prophets taught, and pay 100% attention to what Paul taught Paul taught is all I see Madist doing.






No problem quoting Paul ! The problem is ignoring everyone else including what Jesus taught and making Paul the ONLY one you put any trust in.




Not even close. EVERYONE gentile and Jew are under GRACE if they trust God.





Hi Right Divider , and you SPANKED HIM with Rom 15:8 , where Jesus ministry is to the CIRCUMCISION and that says that there CONTRADICTIONS , and just disregare Rom 15:8 , did a good verse !!

dan p

You guys and gals have tunnel vision and cannot see the forest for the trees.

Jesus' ministry was to and for everyone !

 

[Right Divider]

It would be awesome if you could calm down enough to quote a post properly.

Lets disregard everything Jesus and the other Apostles taught and take completely out of context what Jesus, the Apostles and prophets taught, and pay 100% attention to what Paul taught Paul taught is all I see Madist doing.

False accusation # 25 billion.

I am the one using the PROPER context. It is YOU that is taking things OUT of context.

What do you suppose the proper context is for this?

Matt 10:1-15 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:1) And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (10:2) Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother; (10:3) Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; (10:4) Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. (10:5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (10:6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (10:7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (10:8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. (10:9) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, (10:10) Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. (10:11) And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. (10:12) And when ye come into an house, salute it. (10:13) And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. (10:14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. (10:15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. ​

Do you try to follow Jesus in this also?

No problem quoting Paul ! The problem is ignoring everyone else including what Jesus taught and making Paul the ONLY one you put any trust in.

More false accusations... don't you get tired of falsely accusing others?

Not even close. EVERYONE gentile and Jew are under GRACE if they trust God.

So what did Paul mean in Galatians 4:5?

I corrected that it was supposed to be Ephesians 2:8,9. Sorry.

Madist claim that some are saved by grace through faith while others are saved through grace + works, and I asked if you believe the Apostle John got it wrong ?

John said:

Ephesians 2:8–9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

So did John get it wrong in your opinion ?

John did write Ephesians, Paul did.

Not according to scripture:

Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

There is ONLY ONE gospel.

So confused.... I've explained this before.... Paul is talking to a SPECIFIC group when he says this and he REPEATS that over and over. See this blog: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3469-Another-gospel-in-Galatians-1

I pray we ALL see the truth of God as Jesus taught His Apostles and disciples.

I see it all and I believe it all.

 

[dodge]

It would be awesome if you could calm down enough to quote a post properly.


False accusation # 25 billion.

I am the one using the PROPER context. It is YOU that is taking things OUT of context.

What do you suppose the proper context is for this?

Matt 10:1-15 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:1) And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (10:2) Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother; (10:3) Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; (10:4) Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. (10:5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (10:6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (10:7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (10:8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. (10:9) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, (10:10) Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. (10:11) And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. (10:12) And when ye come into an house, salute it. (10:13) And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. (10:14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. (10:15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. ​

Do you try to follow Jesus in this also?



More false accusations... don't you get tired of falsely accusing others?



So what did Paul mean in Galatians 4:5?


John did write Ephesians, Paul did.


So confused.... I've explained this before.... Paul is talking to a SPECIFIC group when he says this and he REPEATS that over and over. See this blog: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3469-Another-gospel-in-Galatians-1



I see it all and I believe it all.

I am done keep on following 1 person from scripture and ignore ALL others.

 

[Right Divider]

I am done keep on following 1 person from scripture and ignore ALL others.

False accusation again. Lying is unbecoming of a Christian.... you should stop.

 

[jamie]

You do know that there is more then one kind of Gentile, right

According to Paul Gentiles were strangers and foreigners to God's household.

Ephesians 2:19-20 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone...

The church of God, which is the body of Christ, is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

Are you in?

 

[Right Divider]

According to Paul Gentiles were strangers and foreigners to God's household.

Ephesians 2:19-20 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone...

The church of God, which is the body of Christ, is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

Are you in?

I guess you prefer monologue to dialogue. Enjoy yourself.