Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Not even remotely if Christ's Resurrection is nonfiction historical fact, no.
The Word of God?
- Thread starter Guyver
- Start date
Dude! You and your Christ’s resurrection? Honestly.
Sorry. No. It is not a historical fact. The Bible is not a book of history. Well, check that, I take it back because I don’t want to invest the time in debating what a book of history is. Christ’s resurrection is supported by the Bible and one spurious reference in history. That makes it a possibility, and not a historical fact.
If you want to believe it, and it helps you be a better person, then I support your belief 100%
csuguy
Well-known member
You need to go back and read our correspondence more closely, because the discussion was concerning God being represented as a God of War in the OT vs the NT - which goes beyond the scope of your lone proof text. I showed you quite clearly that this isn't the case - God in the OT explicitly doesn't desire for his Temple to be built by a Warrior King, but by a King of Peace. There are many more examples we could go into - but you continue to simply cherry pick and ignore whatever doesn't fit your preconceived narrative. Completely intellectually dishonest.
I take correction just fine - what I can't stand is your intellectual dishonesty.
Surprise, surprise - you ignore references in the NT that don't fit your predetermined narrative as well. More intellectual dishonesty.
You like that tactic. Pretty clever. If you can’t handle answering my questions or addressing my points, you can just dismiss them by a false accusation.
Is God a war God or the God of love and peace? Which do you prefer?
csuguy
Well-known member
I still consider it rude to go completely off topic in another persons thread. Also, I prefer another thread for organizational purposes. I've gone ahead and created a new thread with responses to your points here: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...vs-Scripture&p=5327490&viewfull=1#post5327490
csuguy
Well-known member
No false accusations - you continue to ignore whatever in scripture doesn't fit your preconceived narrative. Anyone can go through the conversation and see you do this multiple times.
The scriptures teach that God is a God of love and peace. That is how God desires to be represented, whether OT or NT. God engages in war and judgement - but does not desire these things.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Yep. I'm a Christian.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Agree to disagree.
Obviously it is a choice to believe that Christ's Resurrection is nonfiction historical fact. Your evidence that it is fictional is incomplete, and your reason given for not believing it facile.
You have a right to your view, and I'd never approve of any law that said otherwise. You have a right to tell me that what I believe is a fairy tale.
Not that Christ's Resurrection was written about, is the most compelling reason for believing that it happened. What's most compelling is that all those people died witnessing that it did. Not because hoaxes never happen, but because a hoax does not support all the death. At some point, someone would have said that it was made up, rather than voluntarily be subjected to the death penalty witnessing to something they know is false. And even if they falsely believed that it happened, but that it is a hoax, still does not explain it.
Here are the people who either took their own life, or subjected themselves to essentially "suicide by cop," only instead of "by cop," it was by "the sword" at the time they occurred: John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, Judas Iscariot, all the Apostles except John the son of Zebedee. All these people knew each other personally, except for the Apostle Paul, who as far as we know, did not know or meet either John the Baptist or Jesus, and who therefore complicates the theory that the Resurrection was a hoax, because he too willingly submitted to the death penalty for witnessing to the Resurrection being nonfiction historical fact.
Paul obviously was not 'in on' the hoax plan, as it must have been originally hatched, by Jesus and John the Baptist and the Disciples.
So what all this really looks like, as compared to a simple hoax, is a suicide pact of some variety between Jesus of Nazareth, John the Baptist, all the Lord's Disciples (including Judas Iscariot), and then, later on, Paul. The idea was compelling enough that Paul bought into it, and joined the suicide pact. 'Topic for another post, as to what could have compelled him to join this hypothetical suicide pact.
So that's really what you're arguing in saying that you don't believe in Christ's Resurrection, because that actually comports with the facts, meaning that it explains all the death. And so it is against this explanation that I choose to believe that Christ's Resurrection is nonfiction historical fact, and not a hoax at the center of a suicide pact.
And I hope that this has helped you to better understand Christians. We don't hedge this bet. We are 'all in' on Christ's Resurrection, and it's the lens through which we size up everything else, including whether or not God is real, and if He is, what His Word actually is (cf. your OP).
'Glad to see that you acknowledge, recognize, and affirm my inalienable right to religious liberty. It is mutual.
:e4e:
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
OK. In my mind, everything is connected, so there's really no such thing as 'off topic' so long as we remain connected to the OP, and I haven't seen anywhere where we have severed ties with it.
But OK anyway.
OK.
Thanks for the answer. The bible disagrees with you. Here's a verse from 1 Samuel 2:25
"Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them."
So, you say God doesn't desire these things, but the bible says he does. In light of this, perhaps its best if you stop accusing me of intellectual dishonesty and point that crooked finger at yourself?
csuguy
Well-known member
It is not sufficient to pull out a single verse and use that as the basis for understanding the Lord - whether OT or NT. This verse in particular isn't speaking of God's general desires/will, but is a specific instance where God has determined that these people are to be judged for their sins. I've already noted that God does engage in judgement and war - it's not surprising to anyone that you'd find particular instances where God has decided to engage in such. In this case the people being judged are priests who were very corrupt and abusing their position as representatives of God - a big no, no.
As Jesus rebuked the Pharisees concerning the Sabbath, so I say to you:
John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.
God is very forgiving, whether NT or OT, but there are limits. Eventually God will decide that enough is enough and decide to judge people for their sins. Here's a powerful verse on the matter from Isaiah 1:
Isaiah 1:10-20 Hear the word of the Lord,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the instruction of our God,
You people of Gomorrah.
11
“What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I [d]have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12
“When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires [e]of you this trampling of My courts?
13
“Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14
“I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15
“So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are [f]covered with blood.
16
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
[g]Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.
19
“If you consent and obey,
You will eat the best of the land;
20
“But if you refuse and rebel,
You will be devoured by the sword.”
Truly, the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
Indeed, this is the general position of God throughout the scriptures, OT and NT: do what is right and good and you shall live, persist in doing evil and you will die. So stop being arrogant, greedy, selfish individuals and do what is right already so that you can live.
Deutoronomy 30:15-20 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
Romans 2:6-10 [God] will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress [e]for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
If God's desire was to judge people then he wouldn't have established a means for people to be forgiven. Hence the Law prescribes all kinds of sacrifices and festivals to address the people's sins so that they may repent and be forgiven. Hence God is constantly attempting to set Israel in the right path and away from sin. But there are limits and God will choose to engage in judgement when people are intent on sinning and refuse to repent and do what is right.
In summary - stop cherry picking scriptures and do some studying. You are ignorant of what the scriptures teach.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Is there such a thing as innocent children and animals?
For that matter, receiving God's goodness is contingent upon believing God. Mark 9:23
An animal is merely an animal.
Children are the responsibility of their parents.
If parents reject God, the children miss out.
Hebrews 2:14 tells us who has the power of death. the Devil does
So for people to claim that God is all powerful is error. God does not murder innocents, the Devil does
That is why we read the Bible, to learn, not as some, who are hell bent on ignorantly criticizing something they know little or nothing about
That you would even ask this question scares me.
I mean, I just almost can't even understand how a person could think in such a way as to be able to allow that question to come out of their mouth.
Similarly, it is not OK to claim that the whole Bible is the Word of God, and then treat individual verses as they are not.
So you wear a wedding ring? If so, I guess your wedding ring is made of gold. You have a gold ring. You don't have a gold ring that is part gold and part aluminum.
So, if the Bible is God's word, then it's pure all the way through. Every time I post a verse, you go about the business of trying to explain it away, as if it doesn't say what it says.
oatmeal
Well-known member
All people are dead in trespasses and sin without God and without hope in this world before receiving salvation. See Ephesians 2.
That includes little children who are not saved and do not have a believing parent.
Thus their lives are subject to the whims of the Devil the thief of John 10:10.
A dog named Balto saved the town of Nome in 1925, and I bet he’s more righteous than most humans.
How someone could believe that “loving God” would damn an animal or child to hell is just plain crazy. IMHO.
Your religion has messed you up psychologically. And you call yourself a Christian?
Not even Jesus believed that nonsense. He said children are saved creations of God who’s angels see the face of their FATHER in Heaven.
Check yourself.
How someone could believe that “loving God” would damn an animal or child to hell is just plain crazy. IMHO.
Your religion has messed you up psychologically. And you call yourself a Christian?
Not even Jesus believed that nonsense. He said children are saved creations of God who’s angels see the face of their FATHER in Heaven.
Check yourself.
csuguy
Well-known member
I agree that you need to acknowledge all verses. However, no verse stands on its own - everything must be read and interpreted in context. Indeed, one of the big things that Christ criticized the Pharisees over in the NT was their overly literal interpretation of the Law, ignoring the intent, the Spirit of the Law. In this case, this verse must be addressed in light of the abundant testimony of scripture that God's inner most desire is not for us to suffer or face justice - he desires mercy, he desires that we do what is right, he desires that we live.
But the world isn't perfect; man is sinful. As such, the perfect ideals and scenarios that God puts forth are frequently unmet - and he adjusts to a less desirable position to meet us where we are at. For example: God doesn't desire divorce, but the Law permits it vs trying to force us to stay together. God originally was going to take all the first born of Israel to serve him - but after the Golden Calf incident he instead took the tribe of Levi to serve in their place, etc.
Justice and Judgement are the same. They aren't the ideal - they aren't what God truly desires. However, when faced with the unrepentant sins of man, God adjusts to meet us where we are at - and that means justice and judgement. Within this less than ideal scenario, justice and judgement become the best response - and so God is said to desire it. But this isn't God's ideal - it isn't what he desires in his heart of hearts.
Hosea 6:6-7 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. 7 As at Adam, they have broken the covenant; they were unfaithful to me there.
James 2:12-13 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
James 2:12-13 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
As far as your argument that the bible needs to be pure all the way through - that is simply false. The scriptures were/are written, transcribed, translated, canonized, and interpreted by fallible men. Of course the scriptures aren't without blemish - though there are also far more historical records to validate and critique the scriptures with than any other ancient document in existence. In some cases these flaws do have an impact on theological debates - but not at the level were discussing things at.
k0de
Active member
Where are you getting the reference in bold from? I thought you said some where on this thread that the entire Bible has to pure like a ring of gold.
So why you couldn't remember:
"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law." (Romans 2:14)
And you also forgat
"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
(Romans 2:25-27)
k0de
Active member
You also forget this:
"A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." (Romans 2:28-29)