The Word of God?

Guyver

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Justice and Judgement are the same.

NO they are not.

As far as your argument that the bible needs to be pure all the way through - that is simply false. The scriptures were/are written, transcribed, translated, canonized, and interpreted by fallible men. Of course the scriptures aren't without blemish - though there are also far more historical records to validate and critique the scriptures with than any other ancient document in existence. In some cases these flaws do have an impact on theological debates - but not at the level were discussing things at.

When you make a post as large as this one I'm quoting, and making so many points simultaneously, it should come as no surprise that I don't address everything you said.

Your first point is that the bible must be read and considered in its entirety with verses in context. Well duh. OK. That's a given. I don't even understand why that point need be established.

It doesn't matter if you take the whole bible and any verse under discussion in context or not, the meaning and intent is obvious.

For example, here in 1 Samuel chapter 15 it says......"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”

OK. That is the point. NOw, go read the full chapter in context, and you can see that it claims God is speaking to Saul through the prophet Samuel, and commanding him and the army to go completely slaughter everything. In other words, go commit genocide, an atrocity even worse than what the Nazi's did to the Jews in WWII because the Nazi's didn't go about killing all the animals.

You contrast this with your claim that God is the same in the OT and the NT and it doesn't work. The NT calls God the God of Love and Peace. The God of love and Peace does not call people to go slaughter innocent children, and all people and animals. That's the exact opposite of what a "God of Love and Peace" would do.

NOw, on to your first point. That judgement and justice are the same thing. They are not. Justice is right behavior. Proper action. Just. To do well. To be moral, and righteous is what a just person is. Slaughtering innocent beings is not just or right. It is an evil, it is a wrong. If you think it's right, then you are no different from Muslim Terrorists who slaughter innocent people in the name of their "God." In fact, one could argue the same "God" of the bible as they believe they serve the God of Abraham just as Christians do.
 

k0de

Active member
NO they are not.



When you make a post as large as this one I'm quoting, and making so many points simultaneously, it should come as no surprise that I don't address everything you said.

Your first point is that the bible must be read and considered in its entirety with verses in context. Well duh. OK. That's a given. I don't even understand why that point need be established.

It doesn't matter if you take the whole bible and any verse under discussion in context or not, the meaning and intent is obvious.

For example, here in 1 Samuel chapter 15 it says......"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”

OK. That is the point. NOw, go read the full chapter in context, and you can see that it claims God is speaking to Saul through the prophet Samuel, and commanding him and the army to go completely slaughter everything. In other words, go commit genocide, an atrocity even worse than what the Nazi's did to the Jews in WWII because the Nazi's didn't go about killing all the animals.

You contrast this with your claim that God is the same in the OT and the NT and it doesn't work. The NT calls God the God of Love and Peace. The God of love and Peace does not call people to go slaughter innocent children, and all people and animals. That's the exact opposite of what a "God of Love and Peace" would do.

NOw, on to your first point. That judgement and justice are the same thing. They are not. Justice is right behavior. Proper action. Just. To do well. To be moral, and righteous is what a just person is. Slaughtering innocent beings is not just or right. It is an evil, it is a wrong. If you think it's right, then you are no different from Muslim Terrorists who slaughter innocent people in the name of their "God." In fact, one could argue the same "God" of the bible as they believe they serve the God of Abraham just as Christians do.
 

Guyver

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Where are you getting the reference in bold from? I thought you said some where on this thread that the entire Bible has to pure like a ring of gold.

So why you couldn't remember:

"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law." (Romans 2:14)

And you also forgat

"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
(Romans 2:25-27)

You quoted two references in bold. The first reference is from the bible itself. Several times it is states that the Laws of Moses were for the Jews only. Check Exodus 19.

Here in Exodus 25 "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. 22 And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel."

Key words "Children of Israel." That's who the law was given to. No one else.

"Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God."

The other reference you bolded comes from the science of archaeology. That is how we know where people lived and when, in conjunction with the other branches of science that work in this regard.
 

k0de

Active member
But Why?

"When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!"
(Deuteronomy 25:19)

I don't know. And the world may never now. But it is noy for you to say all children and animals. This is only in reference to Amalek.
 

Guyver

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How is it possible to love your neighbor, if you don't try to prevent them from being murdered by a murderer?

In other words, what you're saying is that it's possible to love your enemies while killing them if it is in the prevention of a crime or in self-defense?

OK....but Jesus himself said this...."But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."
 

k0de

Active member
You quoted two references in bold. The first reference is from the bible itself. Several times it is states that the Laws of Moses were for the Jews only. Check Exodus 19.

Here in Exodus 25 "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. 22 And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel."

Key words "Children of Israel." That's who the law was given to. No one else.

"Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God."

The other reference you bolded comes from the science of archaeology. That is how we know where people lived and when, in conjunction with the other branches of science that work in this regard.

So your definition of a Jew is what?
 

Guyver

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But Why?

"When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!"
(Deuteronomy 25:19)

I don't know. And the world may never now. But it is noy for you to say all children and animals. This is only in reference to Amalek.

That makes no sense whatsoever.
 

Guyver

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So your definition of a Jew is what?

Same one as the bible. A descendant of Abraham. I did see you posted the other verse about a Jew being one inwardly. But that's how the bible is. It says different things about the same thing all the time.
 

k0de

Active member
NO they are not.



When you make a post as large as this one I'm quoting, and making so many points simultaneously, it should come as no surprise that I don't address everything you said.

Your first point is that the bible must be read and considered in its entirety with verses in context. Well duh. OK. That's a given. I don't even understand why that point need be established.

It doesn't matter if you take the whole bible and any verse under discussion in context or not, the meaning and intent is obvious.

For example, here in 1 Samuel chapter 15 it says......"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’


OK. That is the point. NOw, go read the full chapter in context, and you can see that it claims God is speaking to Saul through the prophet Samuel, and commanding him and the army to go completely slaughter everything. In other words, go commit genocide, an atrocity even worse than what the Nazi's did to the Jews in WWII because the Nazi's didn't go about killing all the animals.

You contrast this with your claim that God is the same in the OT and the NT and it doesn't work. The NT calls God the God of Love and Peace. The God of love and Peace does not call people to go slaughter innocent children, and all people and animals. That's the exact opposite of what a "God of Love and Peace" would do.

NOw, on to your first point. That judgement and justice are the same thing. They are not. Justice is right behavior. Proper action. Just. To do well. To be moral, and righteous is what a just person is. Slaughtering innocent beings is not just or right. It is an evil, it is a wrong. If you think it's right, then you are no different from Muslim Terrorists who slaughter innocent people in the name of their "God." In fact, one could argue the same "God" of the bible as they believe they serve the God of Abraham just as Christians do.

But Why?

"When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!"
(Deuteronomy 25:19)

I don't know why. And the world may never now why. But it is not for you to say all children and animals. This is only in reference to Amalek.
 
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k0de

Active member
Same one as the bible. A descendant of Abraham. I did see you posted the other verse about a Jew being one inwardly. But that's how the bible is. It says different things about the same thing all the time.

What about an heir through Jesus Christ? If you don't see this light. Then there is much more for you to learn. Your logic towards the Bible is good. But there is another side of the Bible that you lack. Start at the core. Remember Jews was a Jew.
 

k0de

Active member
That makes no sense whatsoever.

What doesn't make sense?

let's see... You say... my claim is that(1 Samauel 15:3) proof that God likes to kill innocent children and animals.

"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samauel 15:3)

I say that you error because Samaul 15:3 is only in reference to Amalek, its children and possesion.
(Deuteronomy 25:19.

When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!
Deuteronomy


If that doesn't make sense read your bible again.
 

Guyver

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KOde, Amalek refers to all the people of Amalek. The point is that the Bible is claiming God told “his people” to go kill all the other people. Do you get that?

The problem being that God can’t be the God of love and peace when he commands people to go slaughter other people. It’s inconsistent with the nature of loving God. It’s not loving to go slaughter people. How can you not see this?

And I’ll give you something else to think about. There’s no such thing as “his people” because that implies that other people are not his people.

If God is the Maker of All Things, then he’s the God of everything not just the God of some things. If he’s not the God of everyone and everything then he’s not really God right? The term God means supreme God, the only one there is.

But maybe you believe in many gods.....iDK. People believe all kinds of things.
 

k0de

Active member
KOde, Amalek refers to all the people of Amalek. The point is that the Bible is claiming God told “his people” to go kill all the other people. Do you get that?

The problem being that God can’t be the God of love and peace when he commands people to go slaughter other people. It’s inconsistent with the nature of loving God. It’s not loving to go slaughter people. How can you not see this?

And I’ll give you something else to think about. There’s no such thing as “his people” because that implies that other people are not his people.

If God is the Maker of All Things, then he’s the God of everything not just the God of some things. If he’s not the God of everyone and everything then he’s not really God right? The term God means supreme God, the only one there is.

But maybe you believe in many gods.....iDK. People believe all kinds of things.

Lol. No just one God.

I understand what you mean now. And I agree that these are tough questions and that they require some time to think about. But you must admit using Samuel 15:3 as a back up to your claim wasn't very wise choice.

But any how One question at a time.

Working on the first BRB...

How can a God of love and peace command his believers to go slaughter people?
 

chair

Well-known member
Similarly, it is not OK to claim that the whole Bible is the Word of God, and then treat individual verses as they are not.

So you wear a wedding ring? If so, I guess your wedding ring is made of gold. You have a gold ring. You don't have a gold ring that is part gold and part aluminum.

So, if the Bible is God's word, then it's pure all the way through. Every time I post a verse, you go about the business of trying to explain it away, as if it doesn't say what it says.

A technical comment: Pure gold is rarely used in jewelry. It's too soft. It's alloyed with other metals such as silver or copper. So this is a poor example.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
NO they are not.

Really... I see you cherry pick details out of people's posts the same way you do the scriptures. Go back and read that statement in context....

When you make a post as large as this one I'm quoting, and making so many points simultaneously, it should come as no surprise that I don't address everything you said.

It wasn't a large post. Rather, it seems you have a very limited attention span - given the above. If you want to discuss theology, then put in the effort. When it's apparent that you aren't even bothering to read people's responses - it simply kills any desire to continue the conversation.

Your first point is that the bible must be read and considered in its entirety with verses in context. Well duh. OK. That's a given. I don't even understand why that point need be established.

It's necessary to say that since you continue to cherry picks scripture (and now even my posts) to present a false and dishonest representation of the text.

It doesn't matter if you take the whole bible and any verse under discussion in context or not, the meaning and intent is obvious.

That is simply an ignorant statement. No - the intent and meaning of a verse taken in isolation are not obvious and can easily be manipulated. We need look no further than your post which I am replying to now, and how you quoted "Justice and Judgement are the same" out of context.

For example, here in 1 Samuel chapter 15 it says......"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”

OK. That is the point. NOw, go read the full chapter in context, and you can see that it claims God is speaking to Saul through the prophet Samuel, and commanding him and the army to go completely slaughter everything. In other words, go commit genocide, an atrocity even worse than what the Nazi's did to the Jews in WWII because the Nazi's didn't go about killing all the animals.

A random reference - but not the least bit of an issue. This was judgement against a sinful people - no different than Sodom and Gomorrah. This isn't a hate inspired act - this is an act of Justice against an unrepentant, sinful people. As for animals - we nonchalantly kill animals all the time for food and for sport. A false outrage over them doing it here is silly. Furthermore, by destroying it completely - vs taking what is valuable - underscores it as an act of justice vs looting for personal gain.

You contrast this with your claim that God is the same in the OT and the NT and it doesn't work. The NT calls God the God of Love and Peace. The God of love and Peace does not call people to go slaughter innocent children, and all people and animals. That's the exact opposite of what a "God of Love and Peace" would do.

God engages in war in both the OT and NT, judges and condemns in both the OT and NT, forgives and shows mercy in both the OT and NT, and upholds the Law in both the OT and NT, etc. The only difference is that the NT follows Christ and the early church - a small period of time where the people in question were mostly following God's will. If the NT covered the same amount of time as the OT, there'd be a lot more condemnation of the church - as with Israel in the OT. You continue to blatantly ignore scriptures that explicitly contradict your silly position - despite all your talk of needing to take all individual verses into account.

Acts 5:1-11 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. 3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” 5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. 7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?” “Yes,” she said, “that is the price.” 9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.” 10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

NOw, on to your first point. That judgement and justice are the same thing. They are not. Justice is right behavior. Proper action. Just. To do well. To be moral, and righteous is what a just person is. Slaughtering innocent beings is not just or right. It is an evil, it is a wrong. If you think it's right, then you are no different from Muslim Terrorists who slaughter innocent people in the name of their "God." In fact, one could argue the same "God" of the bible as they believe they serve the God of Abraham just as Christians do.

You are here simply demonstrating my point that you cherry-pick - in this case not even scripture, but my own post. You have no clue what I actually stated because you didn't bother to read it - the same way you have no clue what the scriptures are actually saying because you aren't trying to understand them, but only seeking to undermine them in your ignorance.
 

Guyver

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It wasn't a large post. Rather, it seems you have a very limited attention span - given the above. If you want to discuss theology, then put in the effort. When it's apparent that you aren't even bothering to read people's responses - it simply kills any desire to continue the conversation.

Agreed. As a poster, you are way too insulting and disrespectful to have a beneficial conversation with.
 

k0de

Active member
KOde, Amalek refers to all the people of Amalek. The point is that the Bible is claiming God told “his people” to go kill all the other people. Do you get that?

The problem being that God can’t be the God of love and peace when he commands people to go slaughter other people. It’s inconsistent with the nature of loving God. It’s not loving to go slaughter people. How can you not see this?

And I’ll give you something else to think about. There’s no such thing as “his people” because that implies that other people are not his people.

If God is the Maker of All Things, then he’s the God of everything not just the God of some things. If he’s not the God of everyone and everything then he’s not really God right? The term God means supreme God, the only one there is.

But maybe you believe in many gods.....iDK. People believe all kinds of things.

This is my take for your first question after carefully searching the scriptures. I conclude that God’s command was against murder, not killing, and to eradicate Sin. See Numbers 25:8-13 which is one of many Biblical accounts where killing was required to eradicate sin. And yes the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity are true. How can we forget the historical account of the Crusades, the Pogroms, the Holocaust, and the Inquisitions. I also agree that there is no justification for these actions. But this is not what Jesus teaches who is the God of the Bible.

However, the bottom line is that while the God of the Bible is a righteous judge, He is also a God of love and mercy Who detests the shedding of innocent human blood.

That is my final answer. What is your take take on this question?

Working on your second question....

Is there such a people as God's people?
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Agreed. As a poster, you are way too insulting and disrespectful to have a beneficial conversation with.

Ha! Rather than own up to your error you run away.

Besides, it is you who have been insulting and disrespectful - you have been nothing but intellectually dishonest the entire course of our conversation. You can't even be bothered to read my replies - and even cherry pick my own words out of context. You even compared Christians to terrorists.

Come back when you are interested in honestly discussing these issues - vs trying to take pot shots at other people's beliefs in your ignorance.
 

Guyver

BANNED
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This is my take for your first question after carefully searching the scriptures. I conclude that God’s command was against murder, not killing, and to eradicate Sin. See Numbers 25:8-13 which is one of many Biblical accounts where killing was required to eradicate sin. And yes the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity are true. How can we forget the historical account of the Crusades, the Pogroms, the Holocaust, and the Inquisitions. I also agree that there is no justification for these actions. But this is not what Jesus teaches who is the God of the Bible.

However, the bottom line is that while the God of the Bible is a righteous judge, He is also a God of love and mercy Who detests the shedding of innocent human blood.

That is my final answer. What is your take take on this question?

Working on your second question....

Is there such a people as God's people?

First of all, thank you for answering the question in the manner you did. Good for you for not following what many people offer as the norm on this site, with their disgusting and misguided insults. That speaks to their fail and hypocrisy.

Anyway, no...I do not accept your explanation at all and find it the stuff of religious delusion. But I respect that you treated the question with respect, and answered to the best of your ability. I also appreciate that you asked me for my opinion, and thoughts on the matter, because that shows wisdom and understanding.

To answer the question specifically, I am convinced that if God in fact made this world, then all people are his people. And not only all people, but every molecule which exists in this universe, and any other universe which may or may not exist but probably does....is also under his exact knowledge and will.

To explain why I believe these things is a really big topic, and would require a book, but I will begin with the concept of infinity. And I will argue from your own frame of reference. You believe the Bible is Gods Word. The Bible says that God is of an infinite nature. In the Psalms it states that Gods understanding is infinite. Now, that right there.....I believe. Other bible verses in the NT claim God omniscient, which is the same thing as being infinite in understanding.


But one must contemplate the nature of infinity. In mathematics, infinity is theoretical and real. In between zero and one on a number line exist an infinite number of numbers. Micro. Now go macro. We don’t even know the number of stars in the universe....but God does.

TBC
 
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