Interplanner
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The Rev is not about that at all. It is a completely incoherent approach. The first pages says it is referring to things to happen immediately, at hand, quickly.
ECT The whole Tribulation period is the wrath of God
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The Rev is not about that at all. It is a completely incoherent approach. The first pages says it is referring to things to happen immediately, at hand, quickly.
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That is your opinion as mine is mine . . based wholly upon what the scriptures reveal.
whitestone
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So to you,do you see the events in rev.13 (mark,image ect.) as future to us or that they took place prior to ad70 DOJerusalem?
Even before the cross.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
It means there are more to be killed as they were, after them.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
LA
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I know that much. You have anything to add?
whitestone
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I think it's not in the amount we do know, it would have been simple enough for the Holy Spirit to have stated the name outright. In not stating it,it caused us to narrow down all of the impossibilities and set them all in their correct orders in aspect to those finer details. In short the wisdom to it is that we have no choice but to calculate it,that is if all is held together by the word of God and the Holy Spirit had said it then,he then would have existed and ruled from then till now.
Interplanner
Well-known member
They took place then, it says it is about immediate things, it is pastoral and seeks to support those going through them.
That makes it valuable for any other suffering that may come but in no sense is it a 'manual' or 'schedule' of things that are supposed to happen today, and it does reflect the belief that the final judgement and NHNE was to come soon, but has been delayed.
There are some lines about the NHNE or the new city that sound as though they are all in existence as the book closes. So I can see why there are preterists who find a reason to think that the new Jerusalem and the NHNE has taken place. The problem: that the Rev is so overly symoblic, and that 2 Peter 3 is about the NHNE, and if you don't take in the ordinary sense, you start dismissing the Genesis deluge, too.
whitestone
Well-known member
I see that something took place then(D.O.J.ad70)but I don't think it fulfilled the mark,image,ect.
I suppose that if we were fair in the mirror(the man whose face we shave),then we would say that we have all heard strong arguments from many of the camps of thought. For many years I have listened to one preacher or another make their stance on things and defend one camp or the other.
I said that because in the beginning when I first read the bible I said to myself "I don't care if I end up shaving my head and becoming an Hairy Krishna if thats the true,truth",that is the real truth is what I wanted. Why is because of my family,my sons(5) and my wife,my friends and me,I want us all to know because I love them and so then if I lie to the man whose face I shave then I will deliver to them an lie and instead of loving them I then would have hated them.
I suppose we are all a little different one from another,you I notice are not actually preterit but you do have some of that tendency(lol) I myself was not compelled to become D'ist based on the things I found when I came to TOL I had already accepted that position based on the debates I was either involved in or read through as an guest all the way back to the beginning of the internet.
In the O.P. the issue of the tribulation in comparison to the wrath completely depends on the mark of the beast and the mark of God. Because it does this the mark ect. in Revelation 13 either has to be fulfilled in prophecy prior to ad70 or afterward,but one of the two.
I suppose you have read the arguments I have given in other post/threads as to how these things cannot be if the beast is Caesar/Rome(those proposing Nero,Rome ect./Grotius/Hammond) so if you see that those things are fulfilled before ad70(first cent.) how do you see them fulfilled who is the beast?
Interplanner
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The beast is Roman authority or we might saw Roman theology that powers that authority. Oddly, there were many Jews in administration throughout Roman cities. The image of the harlot riding the beast translates into the use of Roman authority by Jews to persecute Christians, which happesn a lot in Acts. Then the beast turns on the harlot and devours her.
I don't advise building any doctrines on items from the Rev. Find ordinary language statements elsewhere.
whitestone
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well when I was young and had not read the bible I may have gone for the Rome stuff but not any more(no pun intended) anyway I wont take up any more of your time.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Didn't see the pun...
Then you don't think it (the Rev) is about immediate, at hand, things to happen quickly? That's what the 1st page says.
Once the 'harlot' is 'stoned' (ch 17), the wedding of the true bride can take place. Eph 5 depicts us as already married by analogy. It does not mean the whole world changes but that the bride flourishes.
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Wow! How bad can distortion of scripture get?? Is there more along this line?
Interplanner
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Like I said, I don't see much point in basing any doctrine on items in the Rev if they are not already in ordinary language elsewhere. But obviously among the great scandals of pop eschatology is
1, to look at Rev 1 with its three notices that all this is to happen very quickly, and jump X000 years to the future with it, and call that LITERAL INTERPRETATION!!!
2, And then there is embedding of all the symbolism from the OT that is often dark and mysterious but--ka-jing--there are 1 million experts on that in America that it is a 'manual' of 'precise chronology' for us today. Right! There are only a million books with different opinions on the numerology, that's all.
3, Then there is accounting for people and things as the disasters happen. I got about half way through one time and it was -278%, which was a signal to stop accounting in a LITERAL way.
It's like a 10 cent party joke for quick laughs and gags.
It is a pastoral piece for those 1st century Jewish Christians, many of them escaping to Little Asia (the 7 churches) about what happened to their country, and how the 'bride' would still flourish. If you find that concept 'irrational', please review my 3 objections.
1, to look at Rev 1 with its three notices that all this is to happen very quickly, and jump X000 years to the future with it, and call that LITERAL INTERPRETATION!!!
2, And then there is embedding of all the symbolism from the OT that is often dark and mysterious but--ka-jing--there are 1 million experts on that in America that it is a 'manual' of 'precise chronology' for us today. Right! There are only a million books with different opinions on the numerology, that's all.
3, Then there is accounting for people and things as the disasters happen. I got about half way through one time and it was -278%, which was a signal to stop accounting in a LITERAL way.
It's like a 10 cent party joke for quick laughs and gags.
It is a pastoral piece for those 1st century Jewish Christians, many of them escaping to Little Asia (the 7 churches) about what happened to their country, and how the 'bride' would still flourish. If you find that concept 'irrational', please review my 3 objections.
It just means the events which wind up the present age occur quickly once they begin.
However therein is described events which lead up to the quick events as well.
The Lord said He would lead believers into all truth, so why read others opinions of what it is.
If you do not go to the Lord for truth then you will not recognize it when others speak it.
The Bride is not yet fully married, only engaged to be married, but the Lord has given of His Spirit to His intended.
Read--
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Has not happened yet.
LA
Interplanner
Well-known member
In the analogy of Eph 5 the bride is already married.
Only in Spirit presently--
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
LA
Cross Reference
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Jesus Christ is married to the woman, the visible church written of in Revelation 12, who is about to give birth to the "man child". . . To whom Paul addresses the visible church: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you" Gal 4:19 (KJV)
The woman and Jesus being one in marriage is about to bring forth the multimembered body of Christ out of her 'womb' which will be immediatedly caught up to the throne of God to return with Jesus to reign and rule with Him for a thousand years.. The time for this event is becoming very clear for our understanding with little time left for it to happen. The remnant of her seed who don't make the cut will go through the great tribulation per Rev 6,7, 12 and 13 KJV.
The woman and Jesus being one in marriage is about to bring forth the multimembered body of Christ out of her 'womb' which will be immediatedly caught up to the throne of God to return with Jesus to reign and rule with Him for a thousand years.. The time for this event is becoming very clear for our understanding with little time left for it to happen. The remnant of her seed who don't make the cut will go through the great tribulation per Rev 6,7, 12 and 13 KJV.
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Interplanner
Well-known member
...unless it is a picture of God taking the Jewish Christians away from Judea during the clash of the Jewish revolt, to save them and his church.
whitestone
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lol.I think your right. I think that John was writing things that he had already seen happen,things he was seeing take place while he was in the midst of writing them down and the things that were to take place afterward.
Now that would really provide a problem if the things he was seeing happen as he was writing them were suppose to happen after he wrote them correct?
lol, if he had written Revelation and the events that he was writing had not taken place then they are the things that will soon happen,in his life when he wrote it.
Now again some of the things he was told to write he was seeing take place in the earth while he was in the midst of writing it. And even still there are those things he had already seen take place and he was writing them down as he was told in Revelation 1:19 KJV ,,,
LOL, There is the pickle we find ourselves in when we seek to prove a position adamant on saying that Revelation was written before and because of the events to take place in ad70. That is it must first be established that the context of it's writing had already either taken place or was in it's midst of taking place at the time of it's writing.
Anyway though if Revelation was written before ad66-70 and he was writing the things he had already seen take place and those things that he was in the midst of seeing take place while he was writing them then which events had already happened and which were still to occur?,,,(more to the point what portions of Revelation had already taken place and which things were being fulfilled as he was writing them)?,,,
Cross Reference
New member
Jesus Christ is married to the woman, the visible church written of in Revelation 12, who is about to give birth to the "man child". . . To whom Paul addresses the visible church: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you" Gal 4:19 (KJV)
The woman [visible church] and Jesus being one in marriage is about to bring forth the multimembered body of Christ out of her 'womb' which will be immediatedly caught up to the throne of God to return with Jesus to reign and rule with Him for a thousand years.. The time for this event is becoming very clear for our understanding with little time left for it to happen. The remnant of her seed who don't make the cut will go through the great tribulation per Rev 6,7, 12 and 13 KJV.
The woman [visible church] and Jesus being one in marriage is about to bring forth the multimembered body of Christ out of her 'womb' which will be immediatedly caught up to the throne of God to return with Jesus to reign and rule with Him for a thousand years.. The time for this event is becoming very clear for our understanding with little time left for it to happen. The remnant of her seed who don't make the cut will go through the great tribulation per Rev 6,7, 12 and 13 KJV.
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