The WatchTower (Jehovah's Witnesses), Adoptionists, And Islam... Same Daddy
- Thread starter Evil.Eye.<(I)>
- Start date
glorydaz
Well-known member
Your lack of understanding regarding the nation of Israel...no one is worshipping Israel of flesh. We simply believe what is written in Scripture and don't make things up because those things prophesied were not coming to fruition for so long. Yet, now, they are coming to fruition, and we can see it.
Epoisses
New member
You don't believe scripture. You believe Darby's twisting of scripture. Lutherans and Calvinists believe in spiritual Israel are they wrong too?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Nice try. I hadn't even heard of Darby when I read the Prophets and understood what they were referring to. If you look back at what some of the church fathers thought, they said if we didn't know better, we'd say, from reading the scriptures, that Israel would once again become a nation. But, at the time, there was not a chance it would ever happen. But it did happen....in 1948. Now, as predicted, the surrounding nations hate them and are working for their destruction. As predicted.
Epoisses
New member
Israel are those with circumcised hearts who have the Holy Spirit. There will be individual Jews who come to faith but not a nation of flesh like Dispy's put all their hopes and dreams into. Earthly Jerusalem is in bondage with her children of Darby.
:e4e:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Right....don't let the facts on the ground get in your way.
Epoisses
New member
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Rom 2:28,29
Gal. 3:28 ... There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
... Same author... what now? :drum:
Oh... and Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
and... what now? :upright:
glorydaz
Well-known member
There are nations....and God still rules over the nations of men. That's what we're talking about as being prophesied in the OT. It's right there....the Jews returned to their homeland after being dispersed all these years.
I just told you that everything you said about the Adoptionist view I disagree with.
Psalm 2:6-7
6 Yet have I set Melki, (My King), upon My holy mountain of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: YHWH has said unto me, You are My Son, This day I have begotten you.
The Psalm 2:7 decree still appears in Codex Bezae:
http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-NN-00002-00041/371
LUKE 3:22-23 BEZAE (D)
—————— ΚΑΙ ΚΑΤΑΒΗΝΑΙ ΤΟ ΠΝΕΥΜΑ
ΤΟ ΑΓΙΟΝ ϹΩΜΑΤΙΚΩ ΕΙΔΕΙ ΩϹ ΠΕΡΙϹΤΕΡΑΝ
ΕΙϹ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΦΩΝΗΝ ΕΚ ΤΟΥ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΥ
ΓΕΝΕϹΘΑΙ ΥΙΟϹ ΜΟΥ ΕΙ ϹΥ ΕΓΩ ϹΗΜΕΡΟΝ
ΓΕΓΕΝΝΗΚΑ ϹΕ:ΗΝ ΔΕ Ι̅Η ΩϹ ΕΤΩΝ ·Λ·
ΑΡΧΟΜΕΝΟϹ ΩϹ ΕΝΟΜΕΙΖΕ ΤΟ ΕΙΝΑΙ
ΥΙΟϹ —————— ΙΩϹΗΦ
Except for the full decree, from Psalm 2:7, pretty much the same form which is found Codex Bezae still exists in the Greek texts which are used for modern English translations:
Luke 3:21-22 Textus Receptus
21 εγενετο δε εν τω βαπτισθηναι απαντα τον λαον και ιησου βαπτισθεντος και προσευχομενου ανεωχθηναι τον ουρανον
22 και καταβηναι το πνευμα το αγιον σωματικω ειδει ωσει περιστεραν επ αυτον και φωνην εξ ουρανου γενεσθαι λεγουσαν συ ει ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν σοι ηυδοκησα
Luke 3:21-22 Westcott-Hort
21 εγενετο δε εν τω βαπτισθηναι απαντα τον λαον και ιησου βαπτισθεντος και προσευχομενου ανεωχθηναι τον ουρανον
22 και καταβηναι το πνευμα το αγιον σωματικω ειδει ως περιστεραν επ αυτον και φωνην εξ ουρανου γενεσθαι συ ει ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν σοι ευδοκησα
Luke 3:21-22 Bezae (D)
[21] εγενετο δε εν τω βαπτισθηναι απαντα τον λαον και Ι̅Η βαπτισθεντος και και προσευχομενου ανοιχθηναι τον ουρανον [22] και καταβηναι το πνευμα το αγιον σωματικω ειδει ως περιστεραν εις αυτον και φωνην εκ του ουρανου γενεσθαι ϋιος μου ει συ εγω σημερον γεγεννηκα σε
Luke 3:21-22 Bezae (D)
[21] Moreover it was that with everyone of the people to be immersed; even Ι̅Η was-is also immersing, and praying for the heavens to be opened, [22] and (praying for) the Spirit to descend to him, the Holy One in bodily shape as a dove, and (praying for) a voice to come from the heavens, (saying), "You are My son, This day I have begotten you."
Example: καταβηναι - "to descend" - "to come down"
Luke 9:54 Textus Receptus
54 ιδοντες δε οι μαθηται αυτου ιακωβος και ιωαννης ειπον κυριε θελεις ειπωμεν πυρ καταβηναι απο του ουρανου και αναλωσαι αυτους ως και ηλιας εποιησε;
Luke 9:54 KJV (Textus Receptus)
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Codex Bezae is one of the four great uncial codices, (the four most important codices to all of Christianity), and because of what it says in the above passage, and how that passage can be read and understood in the way it has been rendered herein above; I have no doubt that the full decree from Psalm 2:7 was also written in the original Matthew version within the account containing the immersion; for that is where the praying that is recorded in the Luke version was answered. But the second half of the Psalm 2:7 decree, "This day I have begotten you", was excised from the Matthew account when the Hebrew-Aramaic version was translated into Greek by the so-called church fathers, who freely and openly admit that they did indeed translate a Hebrew version into Greek and even referred to the same version as having come from Matthew, or having been written by Matthew, in some of the patristic records, (Re: "This Day I have Begotten You" #10, #17).
More examples showing that what I say is true concerning the verb tenses in Luke 3:21-22.
Matthew 3:13 Textus Receptus
13 τοτε παραγινεται ο ιησους απο της γαλιλαιας επι τον ιορδανην προς τον ιωαννην του βαπτισθηναι υπ αυτου
Matthew 3:13 KJV (T/R)
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Matthew 3:13 Westcott-Hort
13 τοτε παραγινεται ο ιησους απο της γαλιλαιας επι τον ιορδανην προς τον ιωαννην του βαπτισθηναι υπ αυτου
Matthew 3:13 ASV (W/H)
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
βαπτισθηναι - "to be baptised" - "to be immersed"
καταβηναι - "to descend" - "to come down"
And there are many, many, examples in the commonly accepted New Testament canon for both βαπτισθηναι, (to be immersed), and γενεσθαι, ("to come to pass", "to come to be", "to come", "to happen", and so on), which show that the understanding of Luke 3:21-22 which I have presented is not only more likely but true; and thus, it is not me who is lying. In the Luke passage "praying" is in elipsis meaning it is implied in what follows in the statement, it can indeed be read in the same manner as I have presented it in the previous post:
Luke 3:21-22 Bezae (D)
[21] Moreover it was that with everyone of the people to be immersed; even Ι̅Η was-is also immersing, and praying for the heavens to be opened, [22] and (praying for) the Spirit to descend to him, the Holy One in bodily shape as a dove, and (praying for) a voice to come from the heavens, saying, "You are My son, This day I have begotten you."
Okay... so you agree with the following?
Absolute Atonement by the work of Christ on the Cross and Resurrection?
Jesus is God
The Son of God is the Flesh of humanity bound to the Body of God
Faith saves and gives full salvational assurance
National Israel is still the Israel of God's promises to her and she is still his Love.
You came here to bring peace, and abhore discord.
God walked among us in our human flesh... Not as a Spirit within a man... but As a MAN. Flesh and God... ONE... Jesus was born God... Died God and was resurrected God
all 66 book scripture should be taken at face value, without changing words and arguing over translation
elitist clubs that encourage self righteousness by Law Adherence are bad news.
If the Gospel is portrayed as faith + anything ... it is all based on lies.
To deny that Jesus was born God and deny National Israel or Salvation by Faith... Alone... came from the mind of Satan and match his biblical theology perfectly. As in... Satan's theology is reveled in the bible very clearly and these 3 Satanic instruments assist in the squelching of the Gospel.
Islam uses physical force... The WatchTower uses Fear and Disfellowshipping... and
Adoptionists are left to rely on the works of their flesh for their salvation. ... Your works don't save you? I was wrong? You don't teach that the Law is important for salvation... in a Law keeping sense?
You are asking me to agree with your own concocted creed while you give no scripture to support your creed? You never answered the creed I posted, which was taken strictly from the Testimony of Messiah; the same one whom you claim to know, whom you claim is YHWH God Almighty, and whom you claim to worship, (and in fact you helped to get my thread shut down which contained that creed from the very words of Messiah, "The Logos-Word"). You again prove yourself a fraud because the one you claim to know, love, and worship as YHWH God Almighty, is the same one whose Testimony you reject in favor of your own concocted creeds and dogmas. You have proven yourself to be the liar. You do not actually believe that "Jesus is YHWH" because if indeed you did then you would not openly reject his holy Testimony.
Funny... You said I lied. That would mean that the OP's assertion that you disagree with the things I just placed towards you was false.
So... um... who's being dishonest?
Take for instance your statement concerning "Absolute Atonement". What exactly do you even mean by such a statement? I already know that whatever you mean by it I do not agree with your version of atonement. You have made the claim that "Jesus is YHWH", and you have also made the claim that "Jesus has become our Azazel", and therefore by default you have made the claim that "YHWH is Azazel", but when I brought to your attention the plain reality of the fact that Azazel is known as a demon in the book of Enoch; you accused me of "calling Jesus Satan", and because of that your entire atonement theory was destroyed in the thread "Christian Azazel Atonement Theory", so you already know why I disagree with your heretical atonement theory, (no matter what you wish to call it). Additionally, since you say that "Jesus is YHWH", when pressed you also confessed that "YHWH is our brother", and went even further to say that "YHWH is our Son", which is a blasphemous and heretical statement in itself. If anyone is lying or twisting scripture here it is clearly you; and I can hardly think of more than one or two other people in this entire forum that are more deceived than you are. You need to repent and go start over from scratch because you are definitely leading people astray with your divisive heresy.
Again....Originally Posted by daqq
What else can be said to one who by default claims that YHWH is his brother?
You make yourself equal with the Father who is YHWH Elohim Almighty.
Easily addressed! He is our most intimate relationship!
You fall flat on your face at Revelation 21:22
YHWH is our God who entered the Flesh of His creation, through Spiritual means of His design and is His only Son and our Son.
He is our Brother.
He is not a God of Pride! His crown is Humility!
You just proved that God walked amongst us! Who but God could declare all humans his relatives?
You are so mighty at so many duels... but you miss the deepest Revelation of Love in scripture!
Anyone may plainly see the end result of what Evil.Eye actually believes; for by saying that "Jesus is YHWH" he must eventually take that doctrine to its conclusion. And the blasphemous conclusion is just as Evil.Eye admitted in the above post, that is, that he believes YHWH is His own "only begotten Son", (i.e. YHWH gave birth to Himself), and therefore He is also our brother, (according to Evil.Eye's false doctrine), and that He is even "our Son", according to Evil.Eye when he is forced to admit the conclusion of his heretical and divisive doctrine.
Epoisses
New member
There are no Jews anymore according to the old covenant stipulations. There is no temple anymore according to the old covenant stipulations. There is no Israel of the flesh anymore because they are a mixed people. If you want to follow the rules then follow them. So blind and arrogant and unwilling to admit that God does not deal in worthless genealogies anymore. Those who have faith are accepted and those who do not are rejected.
Well said, amen.
Epoisses
New member
The entire Torah revolved around the temple and it hasn't existed for 2000 years. The glaring and oh so obvious defect in their theology.