The verses dispys misinterpret--

[Interplanner]

"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28.Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;" Luke 17: 26-28

The problem in saying that the Church, like Noah and Lot, escaped judgment, will also escape judgement in the Tribulation is that Noah and Lot were of the remnant. The Church is of the multitude, and the multitude does not know and/or does not accept that it is in apostasy - II Thessalonians 2: 3-4, and other texts like Luke 13: 20-21.

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." Revelation 18: 23

"Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." Revelation 18: 4-5

After the falling away God calls those who are his out of Babylon. Babylon is in captivity - to false doctrines.

There was a judgment upon the multitude soon after the ascension of Christ and the Day of Pentecost, in 70 A.D. In the Siege of Jerusalem, Titus led a Roman Army, which tore down the Wall, destroyed the Temple and sacked the city. History reports that over a million Jews were killed in this siege and about a hundred thousand were taken as prisoners.

In a sense the Christians in Jerusalem, mostly of the bloodline of Abraham, can be seen as the remnant, though under James they were not in agreement with all of Paul's teachings, and retained some of the Old Covenant religion. Eusebius says that the Jerusalem Christians got out of Jerusalem and went to Pella before the siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

So, the Jerusalem Christians, mostly Jews, can be seen as a remnant that God preserved, at the time of his judgment upon the Jews of the Old Covenant in the destruction of Jerusalem.

God began his plan of redemption again in the remnant of Old Covenant Israel of Romans 11: 5, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

But the Church at the end of the age in the time of the Tribulation is in apostasy and is certainly not the remnant. The Church as the multitude will not heed the call "Come out of her, my people," though a few will come out of her. "And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." Daniel 11: 33

I thought you were a bit more up to speed on these things, maybe not.

1, the DofJ is the period of intense turmoil of Mt24A. It is not at the end of time, although there is the harrassment of believers all over the world that is coming, Rev 20.

2, I found your post above to be mixing Christians and Jews, and unclear about whether there was 2 remnants. He said in 9 that "us" or the elect or the remnant was believers, whether Jewish or not.

3, the DofJ was not an Old Covenant event, as though violations of the old covenant caused it. It happened because that generation needed to decide about the mission of God and his Gospel. The fork in the road was the zealot pursuit of an independent and old covenant Israel vs a state administered by Rome which would allow quite a bit of freedom to Christian missionaries, which is what Christ wanted his countrymen to become. The zealot rebellion could only end in colossal failure, and did. This is why the 10K army vs the 20K army of Lk 13 is supposed to pursue 'terms of peace', the very expression which is restated in ch 19 as being refused. And the zealots had no where close to that strength.

4, the falling away under the son of perdition is Paul's rendering of Dan 8 and the 'rebellion that desolates' (notice how rebellion changes to abomination in the next chapter of Daniel).

5, there was an interruption in the campaign against Jerusalem in 69 in which it stopped while it became necessary for Vespasian to keep the empire from splitting into two. It resumed under Titus. With Jerusalem incompletely surrounded, believers left for obvious reasons, one of which was the command of Jesus in Mt24A etc.

6, Paul taught in Thess that the escape of these believers from this situation was going to be miraculous--snatched away--but it applies to that situation in #5, not to a miraculous dematerialization. But we do find in Rev 20 that at the end of time, after the reign of Christ and before the NHNE, just when opposition to believers peaks, the mouth of the Lord will slay the opposition.

 

[northwye]

That the Jerusalem Christians who escaped the judgement at the time of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. are an example of the remnant of Israel could be discussed. There is only one remnant in scripture which is the remnant of Israel, seen in Isaiah 10: 20-23, and in Zephaniah 3: 12-13, for example. The 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 is the remnant of Israel, but not of Old Covenant Israel. So is the remnant in Revelation 12: 17 the remnant of Israel.

Remember that the last look we have at the spiritual condition of the Jerusalem Christians is in Acts 21: 20-21, when Paul and his crew met with James in Jerusalem. James told Paul that "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21. And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."

At this time, many Jews believed on Christ, but retained parts of the Old Covenant religion. They were zealous of the law. They were not accepting all of Paul's teachings. Acts 15, and the issue of Christian non-Jews having to become circumcised, was in about 50 A.D and the later meeting between Paul and James in Jerusalem is said to have been in about 57 A.D.

But we do not know if some or many of the Jerusalem Christian Jews came to believe Paul's entire traching by the time when they got out of Jerusalem in about 66 A.D.

If they were a remnant of the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16), then they would have had the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17) and believed all the counsel of God (Acts 20: 27). The remnant does not reject parts of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Danoh]

That the Jerusalem Christians who escaped the judgement at the time of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. are an example of the remnant of Israel could be discussed. There is only one remnant in scripture which is the remnant of Israel, seen in Isaiah 10: 20-23, and in Zephaniah 3: 12-13, for example. The 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 is the remnant of Israel, but not of Old Covenant Israel. So is the remnant in Revelation 12: 17 the remnant of Israel.

Remember that the last look we have at the spiritual condition of the Jerusalem Christians is in Acts 21: 20-21, when Paul and his crew met with James in Jerusalem. James told Paul that "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21. And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."

At this time, many Jews believed on Christ, but retained parts of the Old Covenant religion. They were zealous of the law. They were not accepting all of Paul's teachings. Acts 15, and the issue of Christian non-Jews having to become circumcised, was in about 50 A.D and the later meeting between Paul and James in Jerusalem is said to have been in about 57 A.D.

But we do not know if some or many of the Jerusalem Christian Jews came to believe Paul's entire traching by the time when they got out of Jerusalem in about 66 A.D.

If they were a remnant of the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16), then they would have had the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17) and believed all the counsel of God (Acts 20: 27). The remnant does not reject parts of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

As usual, you and yours cannot but contradict yourselves.

You assert Peter, James had preached the same thing as Paul, and then turn around and assert they were at odds with Paul.

Your problem is YOUR "theology."

It is ever the "perhaps this, well, maybe that...we can't really know..." notions and superstitions of the endless books you and yours base your reasoning ABOUT a thing on.

You have ended up blind to how blind you are to what is actually in front of you.

 

[Ben Masada]

That the Jerusalem Christians who escaped the judgement at the time of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. are an example of the remnant of Israel could be discussed. There is only one remnant in scripture which is the remnant of Israel, seen in Isaiah 10: 20-23, and in Zephaniah 3: 12-13, for example. The 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 is the remnant of Israel, but not of Old Covenant Israel. So is the remnant in Revelation 12: 17 the remnant of Israel.

The remnant of Israel is Judah according to Psalm 78:67-70.

 

[Epoisses]

As usual, you and yours cannot but contradict yourselves.

You assert Peter, James had preached the same thing as Paul, and then turn around and assert they were at odds with Paul.

Your problem is YOUR "theology."

It is ever the "perhaps this, well, maybe that...we can't really know..." notions and superstitions of the endless books you and yours base your reasoning ABOUT a thing on.

You have ended up blind to how blind you are to what is actually in front of you.

There is only one gospel. Maybe you should learn that! Every pastor preaches the gospel a little different than the next guy. Does that mean there are thousands of gospels? LOL

 

[Danoh]

There is only one gospel. Maybe you should learn that! Every pastor preaches the gospel a little different than the next guy. Does that mean there are thousands of gospels? LOL

Your illogic is a marvel to behold...

You really have no business debating theology...

 

[Epoisses]

Your illogic is a marvel to behold...

You really have no business debating theology...

You can't even communicate on a basic level. You're a deceiver who purposely obfuscates because deep down you know that you're a liar.

 

[Zeke]

Hey, Zeke, are you still into "New Age" ideas of thought and reason? I know you're not a Christian believer and are usually found sharing with Caino and Freelight on their "Urantia Book" thread. You fit in with them better than discussing Christian matters. Right Zeke? Are you still concerned about people's signatures on paper?

I certainly don't believe what you do anymore, that brainwashing exist on false dogma/fear and historical phantoms that follow the letter that kills instead of the more excellent way where labels fade into the distant carnal memory you still regard as factual. The legal name is a fraud and is easy to prove if you do the research, but that would be a serious bubble burst in you're world of trusting the great wizard of OZ.

 

[Zeke]

You'll have to lay out what you believe about those passages, as well as what you believe Dispys assert, and - what Dispys you are referring to.

For as with all things in life, one is not only bound to find various schools of thought on any one issue, but also; even individuals within a same school who hold a different understanding on some things than that of their own fellows.

The ball is in your court...

And in more ways than you might think it is...

Been in that court from Acts 2 on through to Acts 28 etc...The verses I referred to suggest a more esoteric foundation than the Roman version that plagiarized and introduced a carnal version of the spiritual intent of the stories that predated the Christian age, hard to except but some times truth shatters our exclusive programming based on fabrications that history hides from.

 

[heir]

There is only one gospel. Maybe you should learn that! Every pastor preaches the gospel a little different than the next guy. Does that mean there are thousands of gospels? LOL

Peter preached that which was "spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21 KJV) while Paul preached that which was "kept secret since the world began" (Romans 16:25 KJV). That's as different as different can be.

 

[heir]

There is only one gospel. Maybe you should learn that! Every pastor preaches the gospel a little different than the next guy. Does that mean there are thousands of gospels? LOL

At Pentecost Peter preached:

Acts 2:38 KJV Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Paul preached:

1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Peter preached that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead to sit on David’s throne:

Acts 2:30 KJV Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Paul preached that Jesus Christ was delivered for our offences and raised again for our justification:

Romans 4:25 KJV Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


Peter preached the blotting out of sins at the second coming of the Lord

Acts 3:19-20 KJV Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Paul writes that we have NOW received the atonement:

Romans 5:11 KJV And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Peter said to Cornelius:

Acts 10:35 KJV But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Paul writes:

Titus 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Different, different, different, different is not the same!

 

[steko]

Peter preached that which was "spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21 KJV) while Paul preached that which was "kept secret since the world began" (Romans 16:25 KJV). That's as different as different can be.

It certainly is!
That's a fact!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Been in that court from Acts 2 on through to Acts 28 etc...The verses I referred to suggest a more esoteric foundation than the Roman version that plagiarized and introduced a carnal version of the spiritual intent of the stories that predated the Christian age, hard to except but some times truth shatters our exclusive programming based on fabrications that history hides from.

One of your numerous problems is, you mix Christianity with spiritualism, the occult, conspiracy theories, strange thoughts and ideas, the Urantia Book, fairy tales, insanity and a huge portion of nuttiness that comes straight out of your warped imagination. I've read your garbage over the years and I think you're a certified "WACKO." If you had room for truths about the Easter bunny, you'd throw them into the mix as well.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I certainly don't believe what you do anymore, that brainwashing exist on false dogma/fear and historical phantoms that follow the letter that kills instead of the more excellent way where labels fade into the distant carnal memory you still regard as factual. The legal name is a fraud and is easy to prove if you do the research, but that would be a serious bubble burst in you're world of trusting the great wizard of OZ.

See what you're dealing with here folks. I'll bet he believes the earth is flat too.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Peter preached that which was "spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21 KJV) while Paul preached that which was "kept secret since the world began" (Romans 16:25 KJV). That's as different as different can be.

no.

There was only one set of Gods promises, and only one way to enter into them, regardless of the audience.

LA

 

[northwye]

"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." Acts 3: 20-22

Here Peter is saying that the prophecy in Deuteronomy 18: 15, had been fulfilled "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken."

Most likely, Paul also knew about the prophecy of the coming of a Prophet like God and like man in Deuteronomy 18: 15.

"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Colossians 1: 26-27

Deuteronomy 18: 15 says "unto him "ye" shall hearken." "Ye" are to listen to and obey Christ. Paul is giving a new revelation, beyond having to listen to and obey Christ, which is a mystery and had not been revealed before.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" has a deeper spiritual meaning than "unto him ye shall hearken." Our hope of entering into Christ's glory is to have Christ in us, in our inner lives.

In Colossians 1: 26-27 Paul is teaching a revelation which is different from that taught by Peter in Acts 3: 20-22, but this does not mean that Paul is contradicting Peter.

Church Christians, often dispensationalist-Christian Zionists, seem to always want to show that the Bible contradicts itself, and that Paul taught a different Gospel than did Christ, or that Peter, when he wrote his letters, is saying something different than Paul.

This does no mean that there was not an issue between Paul and his crew and James and the Jerusalem elders, at one time. We can see this difference in doctrine on obeying the rituals of the Old Covenant in Acts 15 and in Acts 21: 17-26. While James in Acts 15 did not impose circumcision on those who were believers but not Jews, James did say in Acts 15: 20-21, "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

In II Peter 3: 15-16 Peter calls Paul "our beloved brother" and adds "according to the wisdom given him hath written unto you...some things which are hard to understand, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (wrestle), as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction."

But Lewis S. Chafer proclaims that that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

 

[musterion]

Oh look up there...lil' Zeke is yet another ex-dispie who can't even explain the common Acts 2 variety correctly.

 

[Danoh]

"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." Acts 3: 20-22

Here Peter is saying that the prophecy in Deuteronomy 18: 15, had been fulfilled "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken."

Gather information towards Induction of a Working Premise from it; towards Deductiom of a Conclusion based on said premise; and you have an Assertion.

Get any of that off-base due to one misstep or another anywhere along the way, and you have your above, off-base Premise and all that you posted after it that was just as off-base.

The fact of the matter is, that Peter is asserting that Christ had been that Prophet; and their signs confirmed both the sureness of His having risen from the dead as evidence He had been that Prophet, but also; the sureness of His return to be as that Prophet.

First Advent...

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Second Advent...

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Said Return...

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

What days? That Pentecost...

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


Which had been a foretaste of their world to come...

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

When is this world to come?

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

He is coming back Israel; and there will be hell to pay.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You can't even communicate on a basic level. You're a deceiver who purposely obfuscates because deep down you know that you're a liar.

Once again, EPO gets himself banned. That's twice in two weeks.

 

[Danoh]

Once again, EPO gets himself banned. That's twice in two weeks.

What for, this time?