ECT THE UNIQUE HISTORICAL LEGACY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

rougueone

New member
In his homily on New Year’s Day, Pope Francis said that Jesus and his mother Mary are “inseparable,” just like Jesus and the Church, who is the mother of all humanity that guides her children to God. " MARY" guides people to Jesus.

Without the Church and her guidance,( " Mary" is the church and has dominion over Jesus) . our relationship with Christ “would be at the mercy of our imagination, our interpretations, our moods,” the Roman Pontiff continued.

“She is the believer capable of perceiving in the gift of her Son the coming of that fullness of time…that is why Jesus cannot be understood without his Mother,” he said, reiterating that it is not possible to understand Jesus without the Church either, “because the Church and Mary always go together.”

By giving us Jesus,( MARY gave us Jesus ), the Church offers humanity the fullness of God’s eternal blessing, he said, noting that Mary is the “first and most perfect” disciple of Christ, and is the one who opens the path to receive the Church’s motherhood.

“What a beautiful greeting for our mother,” he said, and invited the congregation to join him in standing and honoring her by reciting aloud the title “Mary, Holy Mother of God” three times. Mary is not Holy and GOD has no Mother.








Cardinal Francis Arinze, who’s considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II, has denied Jesus is the only way to heaven. In a recent interview the spirited 66 year-old deputy for outreach to other religions was asked, “So was Jesus wrong when he said he was the way, the truth and the life?” Arinze responed, “If a person were to push what you said a little further and say that if you’re not a Christian you’re not going to heaven, we’d regard that person as a fundamentalist…and theologically wrong. I met in Pakistan a Muslim. He had a wonderful concept of the Koran. We were like two twins that had known one another from birth. And I was in admiration of this man’s wisdom. I think that man will go to heaven. There was a Buddhist in Kyoto, in Japan. This man, a good man, open, listening, humble–I was amazed. I listened to his works of wisdom and said to myself, “The grace of God is working in this man.” The interviewer then repeated the question, “So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?” “Expressly, yes he laughs with the audience]” (Dallas Morning News, 3/20/99)
 

Cruciform

New member
I do not feel your " wrong". We disagree on crucial issues.
If we disagree on an issue, there are only three possibilities:
  • You're right and I'm wrong
  • I'm right and you're wrong
  • We're both wrong
Thus, if you believe you're right, then you must likewise believe that I am wrong.

I was a former Catholic. 16 years.
You left the Church, then, around age 16? This is fairly typical of former Catholics, who generally abandon Christ's one historic Church sometime between puberty and their college graduation. Sadly, however, they characteristically understand very little about the actual doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church, and so what they end up leaving behind is not really the Catholic Church herself, bit merely their own distorted and incomplete picture of what they wrongly think the Church believes and teaches. Tragic.

The issues I have are these:

Without Mary there would be no "Jesus".
Not the same Jesus, certainly, since Jesus human nature came from Mary. If Mary had declined God's invitation to be the mother of the Messiah (Lk. 1:38), things would have gone quite differently at the time. See this.

Praying to Mary, adoration of Mary...
Addressed here and here. (Incidentally, Catholics do not "adore" Mary, but rather venerate her as a model Christian.)

...and the prayer Rosary.
See this.

Catholic communion is the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

The Pope has the authority to make "Saints".
Not the Pope, but the body of bishops (the Magisterium) as a whole. See this.

Purgatory.
Addressed here and here.

Mortal, (Unforgivable) sins, VS. Venial sins.
Mortal sins are not unforgivable (I thought you used to be Catholic! ;)). See this.

The " Rock" is not Peter.
Addressed here and here.

Nor the Vatican.
The Catholic Church has never taught that the "Rock" is the Vatican. (You seem to be rather uninformed about your former faith.)

Calling a "Priest" Father.
Addressed here and here.

Pope is the “Vicar of Christ” (a vicar is a substitute).
Addressed here and here.

Just a few. There is a 99% chance I will not respond. I have been through this many, many, many, times.
One's love of the truth seems reason enough to engage others on these points. Again, either I'm wrong, you're wrong, or we're both wrong. God will hold us accountable for how willing we are to know and do the truth.

I should of never posted here.
Why? What is it that you fear?


Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Cruciform

New member
...MARY guides people to Jesus...
Amen [source].

...MARY gave us Jesus...
See just above.

...the title “Mary, Holy Mother of God” three times... GOD has no Mother.
Mary has been known as "Theotokos" (Greek, "God-bearer") since the earliest centuries of the Christian Church. See this. Put simply, the doctrine is this:
  • Jesus Christ is God
  • Mary bore and gave birth to Jesus Christ, who is God
  • Therefore, Mary is the "mother of God"
Simple.

Cardinal Francis Arinze, who’s considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II, has denied Jesus is the only way to heaven.
On the contrary. Cardinal Arinze has done no such thing, nor does the Catholic Church, which both teach that salvation comes only through Jesus Christ. (Once again, you appear to misunderstand what your former faith actually believes and teaches. This should certainly give you pause, and cause you to wonder whether you made a serious mistake in abandoning Christ's one historic Catholic Church in your youth.)

The interviewer then repeated the question, “So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?” “Expressly, yes" he laughs with the audience.
One may ultimately be saved apart from an explicit knowledge of or allegiance to Jesus Christ (God is merciful, after all), but anyone who is ultimately saved is saved only through and by the redemptive merits Jesus Christ, even if one is not aware of that fact in this life. (See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 847.)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Arsenios

Well-known member

The seven churches in Revelation were still local churches within the one historic Catholic Church,
which certainly extended beyond Asia Minor even then.

+T+

Catholic means that the whole of it is found in any part...

Because Christ is not divided...

But you seem to think that these local Churches
were under obedience to the Church in Rome, Italy,
in the first Century?

I would be interested in your first century evidence for this,
especially when a thousand years later,
when Latin Rome tried to INSERT its DOMINANCE
over the Eastern Communion of Churches,
that it utterly failed...
And Herself miscarried 500 years later...

Arsenios
 
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oatmeal

Well-known member
Consider the following facts regarding Christ's one historic Catholic Church:


Jesus promised, "I will build my Church [not "churchES"], and the powers of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

The Catholic Church is the only universal Christian Church that has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian group is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant communities were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today's Protestant groups are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth century. Some even began during your lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.*


That historical and ecclesiastical status belongs to the Catholic Church alone.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+



_______
*http://www.catholic.com/documents/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

Since his ministry was not to the Gentiles, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, he is not talking about Christianity.

Matthew 15:24, he is speaking to the called out from Israel.

The Gentiles do not come in to play until the day of Pentecost doctrinally, but practically they do not come into play until Acts 10

Good thing for the followers of the Way that Jesus did not build the RCC. He is the head of the body of Christ, not a religious organization.

Jesus Christ does not do the building of the church in this age of grace, it is those who utilize their God given ministry of reconciliation who do that, under, of course the head of the body. II Corinthians 5:18-19
 

Cruciform

New member
But you seem to think that these local Churches were under obedience to the Church in Rome, Italy, in the first Century? I would be interested in your first century evidence for this, especially when a thousand years later, when Latin Rome tried to INSERT its DOMINANCE over the Eastern Communion of Churches, that it utterly failed...And Herself miscarried 500 years later...
Yes, the assumptions and opinions that you have derived from your chosen non-Catholic doctrinal tradition are noted. I'll simply reply by recommending that readers consider this, this, this, and this. Be well.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Cruciform

New member
So far not a single substantive Protestant counterargument or disproof of the facts listed in the OP. Very telling. :think:
 

OCTOBER23

New member
Crucifixated said,

Jesus promised, "I will build my Church [not "churchES"],
--------------------------------------------------------------

Then why do you have so many Churches ???????????

:rotfl::rotfl:
---------------------------------------------------------------

-- In 10 years there will be NO MORE CATHOLIC CHURCH --
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Crucifixated said,

Jesus promised, "I will build my Church [not "churchES"],
--------------------------------------------------------------

Then why do you have so many Churches ???????????

:rotfl::rotfl:
---------------------------------------------------------------

-- In 10 years there will be NO MORE CATHOLIC CHURCH --



Hi , and you HIT them and they will never have answer as that EKKLESIA is a Jewish Nation !!

The EKKLESIA that Paul speaks to is a BODY !!

They have no where to GO , DO THEY ??:D:D

DAN P
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Jesus Christ does NOT do the building of the church...

Is this the confession of YOUR church?

I can tell you it is NOT the confession of the Orthodox Church...

When it IS true, the Church within which it IS true, FAILS...

"If God buildeth not the House, in VAIN do we labor..."

Arsenios
 

Cruciform

New member
Not notably responsive, mind you... :)
I know. I just didn't want to open a can of worms that we've both probably already sorted through for ourselves. So I simply provided a few sources for interested readers. Be well.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Arsenios

Well-known member

From the first sentence of the article:

"After the western Roman Empire collapsed in A.D. 476,
the eastern half continued under the title of the Byzantine Empire
and was headquartered in Constantinople."

Constantine moved the capital of the Roman Empire to Constantinople, and then Rome, Italy, was overrun by barbarians and dropped into the deep abyss of the Dark Ages of Europe...

It was the Romans who ruled the Roman Empire in the East for the next thousand years from the capital of the Roman Empire in Constantinople... The west was written off as untenable, and while the West perished, the East flourished, a thriving Christian civilization... It was never known as the Byzantine Empire, and indeed, when its time came to an end in the 15th Century, the Turks regarded themselves as the new RULERS of the ROMAN Empire...

It is only western scholars who refer to the East as the Byzantine Empire... And the shame is that it is the ONLY Empire on earth (save the Chinese Dynasties, perhaps, and far eastern ones, like Korea and Thailand) that has EVER lasted a thousand years... And it is only NOW finally become an object of serious scholarship in the west... Byzantine Studies is finally becoming an item of scholastic enquiry, and its roots in the Christian Faith are being investigated by some...

So I am inviting you to be aware that there are two sides of this history, and that they do not accord, and that western history and eastern history need reconciliation...

Russia did indeed become the 3rd Rome for the Orthodox Faith, until dismantled under the Atheists, and now the battle has shifted to the USA...

So I invite you to keep your mind open to a very different history...

Arsenios
 

Cruciform

New member
So I invite you to keep your mind open to a very different history...
I've been through it all, having studied these things in depth years ago. And, of course, I would likewise invite you to keep your mind open to a very different history as well. God bless.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

republicanchick

New member
From the first sentence of the article:

"After the western Roman Empire collapsed in A.D. 476,
the eastern half continued under the title of the Byzantine Empire
and was headquartered in Constantinople."

Constantine moved the capital of the Roman Empire to Constantinople,

u may be right but I don't read "historical" accounts written by posters here or anywhere else, to speak of.

we all know how history gets distorted based on the "historian's" bias

I trust CATHOLIC accounts of Church history and no one else's. The way i see it.. If someone is dishonest enough to NOT be Catholic after studying Church history for X number of years, he is a liar
 
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