ECT THE UNIQUE HISTORICAL LEGACY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[Totton Linnet]

And yet, one must first be placed in a sacramental relationship with the Catholic Church in order to be considered a member of the Body of Christ (Catechism, par. 838).

Yes this is one of the RCC 's apostate doctrines, neither Christ or His disciples taught it.

The RCC is not that church of which Christ spoke "thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My church" Look at the difference between Peter's doctrine when dealing with Simon Magus who thought the gift of God could be bought and sold with money and the doctrine of the pope at the time of the reformation who sought to uphold the practise of buying and selling forgiveness.

The structure of the RCC with it's clergy and hierarchy built as you rightly say upon sacraments and not simple faith in Christ is apostate and corrupt.

Time will come when those who truly belong to the Lord must come out of her for she will be destroyed.

 

[Cruciform]

Yes this is one of the RCC 's apostate doctrines, neither Christ or His disciples taught it.

Christ and the apostles certainly did teach that salvation comes through the Church that Jesus founded. Try again.

The RCC is not that church of which Christ spoke "thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My church."

Already answered---and corrected---in Post #20 above.

Look at the difference between Peter's doctrine when dealing with Simon Magus who thought the gift of God could be bought and sold with money and the doctrine of the pope at the time of the reformation who sought to uphold the practise of buying and selling forgiveness.

Already answered here.

The structure of the RCC with it's clergy and hierarchy built as you rightly say upon sacraments and not simple faith in Christ is apostate and corrupt.

...according to the opinions of your chosen entirely non-authoritative recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, anyway.

On the other hand, see this, this, and this.

Time will come when those who truly belong to the Lord must come out of her for she will be destroyed.

See just above.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[jamie]

He saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?"

And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon bar Jonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 16:15-17 KJV)​

Jesus addressed Simon by the Hebrew name Simon bar Jonah because Jesus was about to reveal in Hebrew that they were peter.

That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast, the males shall be the LORD'S. (Exodus 13:12 KJV)​

The word "openeth" and the word "firstling" are both the Hebrew word peter.

Jesus was telling his disciples that they were peter, the firstborn.

 

[Totton Linnet]

We have come directly to Christ from Him we received forgiveness of sin and new life through the cross by the Holy Ghost.

This is the bible way as simple as it is true.

Catholics transfer this to receiving the sacraments and their sins remain nor do they receive new life, no change takes place in them, they leave the mass as they came.

 

[Cruciform]

The word "openeth" and the word "firstling" are both the Hebrew word peter. Jesus was telling his disciples that they were peter, the firstborn.

Answered---and corrected---here and here.

 

[Cruciform]

We have come directly to Christ from Him we received forgiveness of sin and new life through the cross by the Holy Ghost.This is the bible way as simple as it is true.Catholics transfer this to receiving the sacraments and their sins remain nor do they receive new life, no change takes place in them, they leave the mass as they came.

Again: ...according to the entirely non-authoritative opinions you've been taught by your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, anyway. :yawn:

 

[jamie]

Answered---and corrected---here and here.

I don't look up here and here nor there and there.

My experience with you is that here and here refers to someone else's words, not your words. This indicates to me that you only believe what men tell you to believe and not what the NT says.

 

[Cross Reference]

I don't look up here and here nor there and there.

My experience with you is that here and here refers to someone else's words, not your words. This indicates to me that you only believe what men tell you to believe and not what the NT says.

Though certainly unique, I wonder if Crucy thinks the historical legacy of the RCC is good a legacy?

 

[jamie]

Paul was a Roman citizen and evidently spent his last years in Rome. Paul never mentions a "catholic" church or a visit with his friend Peter.

I believe I know why.

 

[chrysostom]

Paul was a Roman citizen and evidently spent his last years in Rome. Paul never mentions a "catholic" church or a visit with his friend Peter.

I believe I know why.

do you know why they named it peter and not paul?

 

[jamie]

do you know why they named it peter and not paul?

Of course.

 

[chrysostom]

Of course.

tell us

 

[Squeaky]

TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS IS HIDDEN

Matt 16:18
18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mark 14:27
27 Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'
Heb 3:6
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Heb 3:7-9
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years.
Rev 12:1-17
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John 14:18-21
18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
Heb 13:5-6
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
6 So we may boldly say: "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
2 Cor 6:17-18
17 Therefore "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you."
18 "I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
Rom 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Cor 5:7-9
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
Heb 3:1-4
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house.
4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.


The true born again church is hidden. There are members in every denomination that hear the Holy Spirit quoting verses to them. God put them there. To trade talents with the members of that denomination. They are very gentle, and willing to yield to the members rather than argue. But they themselves will not go against the verses the Holy Spirit gives them. They question things that are said in the church because of the verses the Holy Spirit gives them. They are demonstrating the Holy Spirit. So everyone is without excuse on Judgment day. They would be the apostles in that church.

 

[Cruciform]

I don't look up here and here nor there and there. My experience with you is that here and here refers to someone else's words, not your words.

I cite information with which I happen to agree completely. Your transparent excuse for avoiding relevant information, however, is noted.

This indicates to me that you only believe what men tell you to believe and not what the NT says.

No more than you "only believe what your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect tells you to believe, and not the New Testament." Try again?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Paul never mentions a "catholic" church or a visit with his friend Peter.

Just another entirely irrelevant argument from silence. Try again.

(Incidentally, the writings of the early Christian Church demonstrate that Christ's one historic Church was already commonly being referred to as "the Catholic Church" by the end of the 1st century A.D.)

I believe I know why.

Regarding this point, you imagine and speculate much. You actually know nothing.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[rougueone]

TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS IS HIDDEN

Matt 16:18
18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mark 14:27
27 Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'
Heb 3:6
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Heb 3:7-9
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years.
Rev 12:1-17
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John 14:18-21
18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
Heb 13:5-6
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
6 So we may boldly say: "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
2 Cor 6:17-18
17 Therefore "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you."
18 "I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
Rom 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Cor 5:7-9
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
Heb 3:1-4
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house.
4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.


The true born again church is hidden. There are members in every denomination that hear the Holy Spirit quoting verses to them. God put them there. To trade talents with the members of that denomination. They are very gentle, and willing to yield to the members rather than argue. But they themselves will not go against the verses the Holy Spirit gives them. They question things that are said in the church because of the verses the Holy Spirit gives them. They are demonstrating the Holy Spirit. So everyone is without excuse on Judgment day. They would be the apostles in that church.

Something I learned a long time ago. Catholics use the Apocrypha and other Catholic doctrine. They dabble in Scripture but adhere to other writings. A large majority that contradicts the 66 Holy Books we use. Which is the reformers removed them. You offered Gods words. That's it. Your "job" is complete. They either accept or reject the Holy words.

I do not want Catholics to be Protestant nor believe as I do. I want them to belong intimately to Jesus . Jesus is the church and we are members of Jesus Holy and universal church-body.


The only "Catholic" I am aware of who knows Jesus and Jesus only as Redeemer-Savior and Lord is John Micheal Talbot. I do not know if he:
Pray's to Mary. I do not believe so. He does give her due honor, which is acceptable.
Believes in Purgatory.?
Or views the Pope as the sole substitute of Jesus.
Talbot does use catholic imagery in his videos. The Golden Chalice and equates the bread as to salvation.

He admits prior to singing this song that Jesus is more important than Mary has Reedemer... ' Holy is His Name ".

I love God through Talbot and have listened to his music for over 25 years.


John Michael Talbot - Holy is His Name at 2:05 He acknowledges Jesus as Savior and above Mary. It's a YouTube video . I can PM you with the link.

 

[Cruciform]

Something I learned a long time ago. Catholics use the Apocrypha...

You learned wrong. There are seven books that Protestants removed from the Old Testament canon in the 16th century which Catholics have considered canonical and authoritative for the past 2,000 years. These documents are known as the Deuterocanonical books, not Apocrypha.

They dabble in Scripture but adhere to other writings.

It's obvious that you're relying upon anti-Catholic Protestant sources for your "information" here. Try again?

A large majority that contradicts the 66 Holy Books we use.

For example...?

Which is the reformers removed them.

Luther and company removed them because these books failed to support their (the "reformers'") novel and heterodox doctrinal opinions, not because the Deuterocanonicals somehow contradict the rest of Scripture. It should be noted that the "Bible" used by Jesus, the apostles, and the early Church---that is, the Septuagint---contained all seven of the OT books that the "reformers" later presumed to remove.

You offered Gods words. That's it. Your "job" is complete. They either accept or reject the Holy words.

"God's words," however, are in no way restricted to the Bible alone, as you apparently (and wrongly) assume. For example, see this.

The only "Catholic" I am aware of who knows Jesus and Jesus only as Redeemer-Savior and Lord is John Micheal Talbot.

How do you know he "knows Jesus and Jesus only," and by what criteria would you decide?

I do not know if he: Pray's to Mary. I do not believe so. He does give her due honor, which is acceptable. Believes in Purgatory.? Or views the Pope as the sole substitute of Jesus. Talbot does use Catholic imagery in his videos. The Golden Chalice and equates the bread as to salvation.

John Michael Talbot is a faithful Catholic, and so believes everything taught by Christ's one historic Catholic Church.

He admits prior to singing this song that Jesus is more important than Mary has Reedemer... ' Holy is His Name ".

All informed Catholics would agree.

John Michael Talbot - Holy is His Name at 2:05 He acknowledges Jesus as Savior and above Mary. It's a YouTube video . I can PM you with the link.

Thanks, but I'm familiar with his music. I listened to it for decades as a Protestant, and have continued to now for thirteen years as a Catholic.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruiform
+T+

 

[rougueone]

You learned wrong. There are seven books that Protestants removed from the Old Testament canon in the 16th century which Catholics have considered canonical and authoritative for the past 2,000 years. These documents are known as the Deuterocanonical books, not Apocrypha.


It's obvious that you're relying upon anti-Catholic Protestant sources for your "information" here. Try again?


For example...?


Luther and company removed them because these books failed to support their (the "reformers'") novel and heterodox doctrinal opinions, not because the Deuterocanonicals somehow contradict the rest of Scripture. It should be noted that the "Bible" used by Jesus, the apostles, and the early Church---that is, the Septuagint---contained all seven of the OT books that the "reformers" later presumed to remove.


"God's words," however, are in no way restricted to the Bible alone, as you apparently (and wrongly) assume. For example, see this.


How do you know he "knows Jesus and Jesus only," and by what criteria would you decide?


John Michael Talbot is a faithful Catholic, and so believes everything taught by Christ's one historic Catholic Church.


All informed Catholics would agree.


Thanks, but I'm familiar with his music. I listened to it for decades as a Protestant, and have continued to now for thirteen years as a Catholic.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruiform
+T+

Let's respectfully agree to disagree. I hope Catholics are saved through Jesus. I do hope this.
Thanks.

 

[Cruciform]

Let's respectfully agree to disagree.

What is it in Post #37 with which you "disagree"? Can you demonstrate why I'm wrong, in your opinion? I'd be glad to discuss with you what Catholics actually believe and teach.

I hope Catholics are saved through Jesus. I do hope this. Thanks.

If anyone is saved, it is only through Jesus. God bless.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[rougueone]

What is it in Post #37 with which you "disagree"? Can you demonstrate why I'm wrong, in your opinion? I'd be glad to discuss with you what Catholics actually believe and teach.


If anyone is saved, it is only through Jesus. God bless.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

I do not feel your " wrong". We disagree on crucial issues.

I was a former Catholic. 16 years. The issues I have are these :
Without Mary there would be no "Jesus".

Praying to Mary, adoration of Mary, and the prayer Rosary.

Catholic communion is the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

The Pope has the authority to make "Saints".

Purgatory.

Mortal, ( Unforgivable) sins, VS. Venial sins.

The " Rock" is not Peter. Nor the Vatican.

Calling a "Priest" Father.

Pope is the “Vicar of Christ” (a vicar is a substitute).

Just a few. There is a 99% chance I will not respond. I have been through this many, many, many, times. I should of never posted here.

Nothing personal.

Thanks.