The UN demands the US pay Reparations

[ok doser]

Well, if we send the bill to the past government of the United States, the present government would end up paying it, with interest. And if we award the damages to the actual victims of the crimes, their descendents would inherit it.

you're missing the fact that their descendants would also pay for it

and how would you determine what share they get?

if i have a single known slave ancestor from 300 years ago, do i get 1/4096 of a share?

is it fair that a citizen with a single known slave ancestor from 200 years ago gets 1/256 of a share?

 

[rexlunae]

England was the biggest perpetrator... and for the longest period of time...

And as I said earlier, they may also be responsible for reparations. That doesn't let the US off the hook, though.

... and got the richest from it.

Got a source for that?

Most slave owners made very little money in comparison... even after the Revolution, England still supplied the slaves and profited greatly through the slave triangle.

In comparison to what? Not owning slaves and deriving four hundred years of free forced labor from them?

Chattel slavery became a thing under the crown, which supported he 'owning' of the first individual. England made sure it was so entrenched in the economy that it couldn't be ended without great financial costs.

And Americans, who were English at the time, played their part. "Great financial costs" don't justify slavery. Moreover, this contradicts your last claim. If the slavers didn't make money on the slaves, how could there be great financial costs to freeing them?

History... you need to learn it.

I'm not sure why you think any of your claims excuse American slavery.

As far as reparations, the Democratic Party should pony up and pay for all the damage it did by supporting segregation and the Klan in the aftermath of the war. The Republicans were all about reconstruction and getting the African Americans involved in government and politics and the Democratic Party thwarted and opposed them at every chance they could get.

I'm not sure what direct role they Democratic party would have played. Certainly, a lot of the liability arose from people who were Democrats at the time. But just having supported slavery without actually having taken steps (as an organization) to enshrine it wouldn't be enough. But I can't rule it out.

I don't care if the party has changed over the last 50 years, its roots are in racism and segregation and should be held accountable for it... just saying its changed and isn't the same does not absolve them from the financial responsibility for their past crimes.

I agree there. Changing your position on slavery doesn't excuse past slavery.

 

[ok doser]

that ignores, of course, the portuguese and spanish slave trade to central and south america

 

[patrick jane]

Every black should be paid 50,000 for being black in America. Would that solve everything ?

 

[Traditio]

Well, if we send the bill to the past government of the United States, the present government would end up paying it, with interest. And if we award the damages to the actual victims of the crimes, their descendents would inherit it.

You haven't submitted a compelling argument that this should be done in the first place.

 

[HisServant]

Every black should be paid 50,000 for being black in America. Would that solve everything ?

Like I said before, 70% of the people that received that money would not manage it wisely and be back to the trough very soon.

The other issue is that our laws prevent treating blacks different than anyone else. A court case would have to make this kind of ruling. If the legislature did it, it would be ruled unconstitutional immediately.

 

[ok doser]

Every black should be paid 50,000 for being black in America.

i hereby self-identify as black in America

Would that solve everything ?

it would sure help me out! :banana:

 

[patrick jane]

Slavery Shmavery - it's old news, like it never even happened.

 

[ok doser]

Slavery Shmavery - it's old news, like it never even happened.

my ancestors fought to end slavery in the civil war


how come all them blacks aren't lining up to pay me reparations, or at least to thank me, or at least to give me back all the stuff they've stole from me?


answer that one, smartypants!

 

[rexlunae]

my ancestors fought to end slavery in the civil war


how come all them blacks aren't lining up to pay me reparations, or at least to thank me, or at least to give me back all the stuff they've stole from me?


answer that one, smartypants!

What have "all them blacks" stolen from you?

 

[ok doser]

a couple bicycles, a car radio, leather jacket and gauntlet gloves


heck, i can't remember - that was a couple decades ago when i was living in the city

 

[rexlunae]

a couple bicycles, a car radio, leather jacket and gauntlet gloves


heck, i can't remember - that was a couple decades ago when i was living in the city

Seems like, at the most, that was some particular people who may have been black.

 

[The Berean]

i hereby self-identify as black in America

Negro please! Don't be going all Rachel Dolezal on us.

 

[rexlunae]

You haven't submitted a compelling argument that this should be done in the first place.

Do you believe that the government is ever liable for what it does?

 

[Traditio]

Do you believe that the government is ever liable for what it does?

I'm simply asking you to give an argument.

Premise
Premise
Conclusion

The conclusion that you want is: the current government of the US owes a debt to the current black citizenry of the US.

I believe that the argument that you are wanting to make is this:

Premise: The previous government of the United States owed an unpaid debt to the previous black citizenry.
Premise: Whenever a debt is unpaid, the responsibility of paying must be passed on the heirs of the one who owed the debt, and the right of being paid must be passed on to the heirs of the one to whom the debt was originally owed.
Conclusion: Therefore, the current government of the United States owes a debt to the current black citizenry.

I'm inclined to reject both premises.

And frankly, I doubt that you even seriously much care about the premises yourself. What you likely are primarily concerned with is the current prima facie inequality between black and white people which you think is unfair.

 

[rexlunae]

I'm simply asking you to give an argument.

Can you not answer my simple question?

Premise
Premise
Conclusion

How about if I make my own arguments, and then you attack them. It doesn't work all that well when you try to make my arguments for me.

Premise: The previous government of the United States owed an unpaid debt to the previous black citizenry.
Premise: Whenever a debt is unpaid, the responsibility of paying must be passed on the heirs of the one who owed the debt, and the right of being paid must be passed on to the heirs of the one to whom the debt was originally owed.
Conclusion: Therefore, the current government of the United States owes a debt to the current black citizenry.

I'm inclined to reject both premises.

I think I'd reject the second premise.

And frankly, I doubt that you even seriously much care about the premises yourself. What you likely are primarily concerned with is the current prima facie inequality between black and white people which you think is unfair.

I think the inequality is evidence for the need of redress, but it isn't directly the cause. If slavery had ended, and the former slaves and their children had quickly become full and equal citizens, there would be little cause for an additional remedy. But what happened instead was that a determined former Confederacy dug in its heals, passed a bunch of laws to recreate as much of slavery as it could, and waited. And a full century later, there were still people willing to blow up churches, and murder children to prevent even a black person from registering to vote. That's most of your "ancient history" right there, and sheriffs willing to ignore and sometimes participate in these crimes, and white jury pools willing to acquit anyone accused.

Every black person, even those who came here recently, was and is harmed by this continuing injustice.

 

[Traditio]

Can you not answer my simple question?

I don't think that it's a simple question. I think that it's a complicated question even abstractly considered, and it's a loaded question in this context.

I'd prefer to remain silent on the matter for the moment.

I think I'd reject the second premise.

Then again, I ask:

What is your argument?

I think the inequality is evidence for the need of redress, but it isn't directly the cause. If slavery had ended, and the former slaves and their children had quickly become full and equal citizens, there would be little cause for an additional remedy. But what happened instead was that a determined former Confederacy dug in its heals, passed a bunch of laws to recreate as much of slavery as it could, and waited. And a full century later, there were still people willing to blow up churches, and murder children to prevent even a black person from registering to vote. That's most of your "ancient history" right there, and sheriffs willing to ignore and sometimes participate in these crimes, and white jury pools willing to acquit anyone accused.

Every black person, even those who came here recently, was and is harmed by this continuing injustice.

That's a very nice rhetorical display, but I'm still waiting for an argument.

 

[rexlunae]

I don't think that it's a simple question. I think that it's a complicated question even abstractly considered, and it's a loaded question in this context.

How is it complicated? It's yes, or no. It's not even absolute, unless you say "no". I didn't ask you if the government was always liable, or liable by default. I asked if you thought the government was ever liable, i.e. if it is possible at all for the government to do wrong and then be held accountable. If you rule out any sort of government liability for any action that it takes, there's no point in having this discussion with you.

I'd prefer to remain silent on the matter for the moment.

This is the most verbose silence I've ever seen.

Then again, I ask:

What is your argument?

The United States of today isn't the heir to the United Stateses of the past. It's the United States. It's the same political body. It may have changed, but in the same way that you are the same person you were yesterday, it's the same United States that participated in slavery. It's not that a debt was handed down across generations. It's that a debt was made and never paid or discharged.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Changing your position on slavery doesn't excuse past slavery.

Changing a nation's position on slavery doesn't grant permission for people that were never slaves to demand reparations from people that never owned slaves.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Every black person, even those who came here recently, was and is harmed by this continuing injustice.

No, they are harmed by the blacks that perpetuate the "ghetto black" stereotype, especially the ones like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who are doing it only to get rich.