The UN demands the US pay Reparations

[kmoney]

Absent fatherhood is an inheritable trait. How would a former slave who never knew his own father know that it was important for him to be involved in the life of his kids?

I would agree that parenting is something you learn from your parents, but calling it inheritable seems too strong. Parents can be a strong influence in how you end up parenting but it's not the only influence, particularly when you're talking about the basic idea of the parent being present. You can't seriously say that because slaves didn't have their fathers black people now have no way of knowing the importance of fathers being involved in their children's lives.

And then think how much harder it becomes when black men are routinely diverted into prisons for much less reason than white men.

Sure. That's not a result of slavery or segregation though.

But aside from that, I think it's pretty cruel that mostly-white mostly-conservative people ascribe a lack of black success to a condition that used to be forced upon them by white conservative masters whether they liked it or not, when there's a much more cogent explanation. There's never been a point in American history where the black family has been let alone to thrive. Either it was a threat to the slave system, and thus to be punished and destroyed, or it was a scapegoat to justify inequality.

How does white people using broken families as a scapegoat to justify inequality lead to black people having broken families?

 

[rexlunae]

I would agree that parenting is something you learn from your parents, but calling it inheritable seems too strong. Parents can be a strong influence in how you end up parenting but it's not the only influence, particularly when you're talking about the basic idea of the parent being present. You can't seriously say that because slaves didn't have their fathers black people now have no way of knowing the importance of fathers being involved in their children's lives.

It's a contributing factor.

Sure. That's not a result of slavery or segregation though.

Of course it is. Black people are viewed with greater suspicion because of segregation and discrimination. The result is that for any given offense, a black person is more likely to be punished and more severely.

How does white people using broken families as a scapegoat to justify inequality lead to black people having broken families?

I don't think it does. It's just a common slander used to justify the status quo.

 

[kmoney]

It's a contributing factor.

I don't see how.

Of course it is. Black people are viewed with greater suspicion because of segregation and discrimination. The result is that for any given offense, a black person is more likely to be punished and more severely.

Discrimination, not segregation.

 

[kmoney]

It's a contributing factor.

In addition, how would reparations address something like this?

 

[genuineoriginal]

you think we went through moral bankruptcy, and had our moral debts discharged?

No, there was no moral bankruptcy involved, and there is no moral debt.

You white guilt liberals are sure stupid.

 

[rexlunae]

I don't see how.

Seems obvious to me. Sever a group of people from a tradition, and the tradition is diminished.

Discrimination, not segregation.

What makes you think they're distinct? The fact that a lot of white people don't interact with black people often means that they draw mostly from stereotypes to understand them.

In addition, how would reparations address something like this?

That wasn't the point. GO, Trad, and ReSODko are trying to say that the social and economic inequalities result from bad choices made by black people, as they see it.

 

[annabenedetti]

That may well be part of the legacy of slavery too.

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/10...black-families-and-still-has-an-impact-today/

Those are some powerful photos at your link. And the forced breaking of traditions and families by slave owners affecting subsequent generations - yes, it had a huge, tragic impact. The Americanists at the turn of the 20th. century expended a lot of effort doing what they could to cleanse other cultures (such as Native Americans, Mexican Americans, Chinese Americans) for their purposes (social conformity) in a similar way. It's a long, sordid history.

 

[kmoney]

Seems obvious to me. Sever a group of people from a tradition, and the tradition is diminished.

I don't consider staying with the woman you got pregnant to be a tradition. Your link has a separate category for traditions also. And again, I think there has been enough time and enough other ways to see the benefits of present fathers to overcome the damage slavery did in wiping out black families. What do you think would bring that tradition back?

What makes you think they're distinct? The fact that a lot of white people don't interact with black people often means that they draw mostly from stereotypes to understand them.

That's changing the meaning of 'segregation'. In this thread it has been segregation enshrined in law for which reparations may be due. You're now talking about some form of de facto or practical segregation. I'd agree that can be a factor.

That wasn't the point. GO, Trad, and ReSODko are trying to say that the social and economic inequalities result from bad choices made by black people, as they see it.

Choices shouldn't be ignored.

And even if that wasn't your point, do you see any way to repair that damage? Some form of counseling? :idunno:

 

[rexlunae]

I don't consider staying with the woman you got pregnant to be a tradition.

The family is a tradition. It even differs significantly from one culture to another. Marriage is a part of the family.

Your link has a separate category for traditions also. And again, I think there has been enough time and enough other ways to see the benefits of present fathers to overcome the damage slavery did in wiping out black families.

It's not always that easy without a ready template.

What do you think would bring that tradition back?

That's complicated, because one of the things that has happened in the last few decades is that intact families have declined significantly across the board. It's less likely that marriage among black people will reverse that trend and catch up to whites than it is that white families will meet black ones in divorce rates.

But a couple of things would definitely help:

1. Reduce the disproportionate unemployment black people experience.
2. Reduce incarceration of black people.
3. Improve the schools for black people.

That's changing the meaning of 'segregation'. In this thread it has been segregation enshrined in law for which reparations may be due.

I think that's a bad definition. Segregation is any system for keeping the races apart. It makes little practical difference whether segregation is de facto or de jure. You might argue that the government is only responsible for de jure segregation, but when you're evaluating family success, you can't just look at the direct requirements of the law.

You're now talking about some form of de facto or practical segregation. I'd agree that can be a factor.

Also, a lot of white people don't recognize the government's hand in creating segregated situations.

Choices shouldn't be ignored.

No, but they also shouldn't be used to judge an entire race without understanding where they come from. Lets subject white people to a few centuries of slavery and brutality and see how their family structure comes out.

And even if that wasn't your point, do you see any way to repair that damage? Some form of counseling? :idunno:

No, no, no, no, no. Definitely not that. I think that the best we can hope to do is removing some of the systemic components that I mentioned above that make family more difficult.

 

[kmoney]

The family is a tradition. It even differs significantly from one culture to another. Marriage is a part of the family.

:idunno: I don't really see it but no further comment.

It's not always that easy without a ready template.

Your own parents will be the most immediate and influential template, but I don't think the lack of it means there isn't another 'ready' template to look to.

That's complicated, because one of the things that has happened in the last few decades is that intact families have declined significantly across the board. It's less likely that marriage among black people will reverse that trend and catch up to whites than it is that white families will meet black ones in divorce rates.

But a couple of things would definitely help:

1. Reduce the disproportionate unemployment black people experience.
2. Reduce incarceration of black people.
3. Improve the schools for black people.

There is an obvious connection for 2. 1 and 3 are more indirect. I'm not opposed to attempting to improve 1 and 3 but I don't think it should be in a discussion about families.

I think that's a bad definition. Segregation is any system for keeping the races apart. It makes little practical difference whether segregation is de facto or de jure. You might argue that the government is only responsible for de jure segregation, but when you're evaluating family success, you can't just look at the direct requirements of the law.

I wasn't trying to define it; I was only giving what I thought was being used in this thread. Especially when talking about reparations, which I think would be tied to legal responsibility.

Also, a lot of white people don't recognize the government's hand in creating segregated situations.

Such as?

No, but they also shouldn't be used to judge an entire race without understanding where they come from. Lets subject white people to a few centuries of slavery and brutality and see how their family structure comes out.

I think part of it is a reaction to certain segments of the other side focusing on everything but personal responsibility.

No, no, no, no, no. Definitely not that. I think that the best we can hope to do is removing some of the systemic components that I mentioned above that make family more difficult.

What's wrong with counseling? :chuckle:

 

[genuineoriginal]

And even if that wasn't your point, do you see any way to repair that damage? Some form of counseling? :idunno:

Who will be undergoing the counseling?

 

[kmoney]

Who will be undergoing the counseling?

:idunno: anyone who wants it.

 

[rexlunae]

Your own parents will be the most immediate and influential template, but I don't think the lack of it means there isn't another 'ready' template to look to.

Well, we're trying to explain the disparity.

There is an obvious connection for 2. 1 and 3 are more indirect. I'm not opposed to attempting to improve 1 and 3 but I don't think it should be in a discussion about families.

Unemployment is hard on a marriage: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/unemployment-and-divorce-_n_2288702.html

The education issue plays into both the employment, and the incarceration rate.

I wasn't trying to define it; I was only giving what I thought was being used in this thread. Especially when talking about reparations, which I think would be tied to legal responsibility.

Well, ok.

Such as?

Such as how the government, mostly run by white people, used tax dollars to build segregated neighborhoods.

I think part of it is a reaction to certain segments of the other side focusing on everything but personal responsibility.

That may be, and certainly individual decisions are very important. But there's also plenty of evidence of systemic discrimination that is either beyond the ability of an individual to control, or that makes individual decisions a lot hard to make in a successful way.

What's wrong with counseling? :chuckle:

With counseling in general? Nothing. As a way of correcting what white Americans see as a problem with black Americans? It's more than a little patronizing.

 

[ok doser]

Well, we're trying to explain the disparity.

the only disparity exists among blacks who embrace ghetto culture


those who reject ghetto culture and embrace mainstream values (hard work, education, two parent families, etc) do just fine

 

[genuineoriginal]

:idunno: anyone who wants it.

The way it typically works is that the people that do not want it are mandated to undergo the counselling.

 

[ok doser]

And even if that wasn't your point, do you see any way to repair that damage?

beatings

and plenty of them! :sibbie:

 

[quip]

In addition to demanding that reparations be paid in the form of enhanced social services, etc. specifically targeted to black people (as though that weren't racist at all!)

I suppose.....equal to research efforts at finding a cure for sickle cell anemia sufferers, likewise targeted. :idunno:

 

[ok doser]

I suppose.....equal to research efforts at finding a cure for sickle cell anemia sufferers, likewise targeted. :idunno:

simple

don't let carriers interbreed

 

[quip]

simple

don't let carriers interbreed

Sure, but how will authorities know who're the carriers from not? May we brand a big S on their forehead?

 

[Traditio]

Just a heads up to all in this thread:

Given my recent commitment to go on "hiatus," so to speak, from any racial discussions in the near future, I'll be abandoning this thread.