The Trinity

[Dartman]

Judaism had no concept of God having a Son.

Not true.
Ps 2 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples meditate a vain thing?2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Jehovah, and against his anointed, (saying),
3 Let us break their bonds asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens will laugh: the Lord will have them in derision.
5 Then will he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure:
6 Yet I have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give (thee) the nations for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, for his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.

While the Trinity had been known and taught long before Judaism evolved, the monotheistic battle of the Israelites against the multiple Gods of surrounding cultures left no room for a Triune deity in Hebrew Theology.

1) Precisely because there is no true "triune deity".... every trinity, from Nimrod to the Council of Constantinople and after, is a "False God".
2) Please explain what you mean "Judaism evolved".

The truth that God has a creator Son who created this world was revealed in the life of Jesus.

This is true ... IF ... you understand the "world/cosmos" is NOT the universe! It came to exist IN the universe .... but Jesus didn't create the universe, Jehovah/YHVH did.
Jesus created the "cosmos" in which we operate, the order of things, the "thrones, dominions, principalities and powers" of heaven and earth.

 

[clefty]

The following shows the deity of Jesus Christ:

1 John 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Jesus is eternal. The apostle believed it. Why shouldn't we.

Eternal yes...but from the time He was begotten...but before that begetting He was not yet begotten...

Only One is immortal...

And like a man becomes a father ONLY when he has a son...or daughter

Man too is His son...is why all His sons pray OUR Father...but created and not immortal and dependent on Him the Father through the tree of life first and then through His begotten Son (our brother) reborn into flesh...

And then again on the tree of life for eternity...

Man...in Him...are Elohim...

 

[Right Divider]

This is true ... IF ... you understand the "world/cosmos" is NOT the universe! It came to exist IN the universe .... but Jesus didn't create the universe, Jehovah/YHVH did.
Jesus created the "cosmos" in which we operate, the order of things, the "thrones, dominions, principalities and powers" of heaven and earth.

Joh 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

​

Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

You are just plain WRONG.

 

[Bright Raven]

Eternal yes...but from the time He was begotten...but before that begetting He was not yet begotten...

. Jesus is eternal


John 1:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[clefty]

. Jesus is eternal

Indeed He is...begotten to be....as was Adam...was created to be...eternal

But before He was begotten He was not...just like before Adam was formed in the dust he was not...

ONLY ONE IS IMMORTAL...and then finally BEGOT a Son...made from Him...just like Adam was created from dust first and Eve was NOT but made from Adam...his rib...and second

Begotten or created both are eternal Sons of Yah the IMMORTAL ONE...the ONLY ONE...and is WHY His ONLY begotten Son in the spiritual realm was REBORN into flesh so that the sons born in the flesh may be REBORN into the spiritual...

is why the Begotten Son called those sons born in the flesh WHO ARE OBEDIENT——>BROTHERS

So He instructed we pray with Him OUR Father...THY WILL BE DONE...just as He prayed

and now IN HIM our BROTHER and THROUGH HIM we are made again eternal WITH HIM...but never immortal...there is ONLY ONE IMMORTAL...Our Father Who art in heaven hallowed by Thy NAME...

YAH NEVER HAD A BEGINNING...NEVER DIED...NEVER AN END...NEVER WILL

John 1:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Yup the only Immortal Yah finally had a begotten Son and when His Spirit hovered over the waters it was finally said LET US CREATE...there in the beginning...and made the two in Our image...in Our likeness...first one then the other...one of the dust the second of the first...TWO...not THREE...

And yes ALL THINGS were made by Him...there in the beginning...

 

[Caino]

Not true.
Ps 2 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples meditate a vain thing?2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Jehovah, and against his anointed, (saying),
3 Let us break their bonds asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens will laugh: the Lord will have them in derision.
5 Then will he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure:
6 Yet I have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give (thee) the nations for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, for his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.


1) Precisely because there is no true "triune deity".... every trinity, from Nimrod to the Council of Constantinople and after, is a "False God".
2) Please explain what you mean "Judaism evolved".

This is true ... IF ... you understand the "world/cosmos" is NOT the universe! It came to exist IN the universe .... but Jesus didn't create the universe, Jehovah/YHVH did.
Jesus created the "cosmos" in which we operate, the order of things, the "thrones, dominions, principalities and powers" of heaven and earth.

The Jews didn't interpret the scripture like you do.

Judaism is a religion that evolved from the agreement that Melchizedek made with Abram. It was reformed by Moses and continued to evolve after that. In Babylon the Israelites finalized the OT books by further editing them.

God is Triune, Jesus is a creation of the Triune deity.

 

[Right Divider]

The Jews didn't interpret the scripture like you do.

Judaism is a religion that evolved from the agreement that Melchizedek made with Abram. It was reformed by Moses and continued to evolve after that. In Babylon the Israelites finalized the OT books by further editing them.

God is Triune, Jesus is a creation of the Triune deity.

That is the dumbest post that I've ever seen.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That is the dumbest post that I've ever seen.

I'm still wondering why I haven't put him on ignore yet...

Perhaps for the entertainment value?

Where he comes up with these nonsensical ideas is beyond me, but it's quite entertaining to watch him struggle with such easy to understand concepts.

 

[Right Divider]

I'm still wondering why I haven't put him on ignore yet...

Perhaps for the entertainment value?

Where he comes up with these nonsensical ideas is beyond me, but it's quite entertaining to watch him struggle with such easy to understand concepts.

:mock: Urantia

 

[Dartman]

The Jews didn't interpret the scripture like you do.

The Jewish authors of the New Testament disagree with your theory.

Judaism is a religion that evolved from the agreement that Melchizedek made with Abram.

What "agreement"??

Gen 14:18-20 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

It was reformed by Moses

Nothing was "reformed". The Law Jehovah/YHVH God gave through Moses to Israel did NOT "reform" the covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Israel, it added the essential instructions for running that nation, and for the Levitical priesthood.

... and continued to evolve after that. In Babylon the Israelites finalized the OT books by further editing them.

Not by editing ... by adding more prophetic writings.

God is Triune, Jesus is a creation of the Triune deity.

Only according to your theory ..... not according to Scripture. Your version of the trinity is a bit unusual .... could you explain HOW "Jesus is a creation of the Triune deity", and WHY you think that?

 

[Caino]

The Jewish authors of the New Testament disagree with your theory.

What "agreement"??

Gen 14:18-20 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.




Nothing was "reformed". The Law Jehovah/YHVH God gave through Moses to Israel did NOT "reform" the covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Israel, it added the essential instructions for running that nation, and for the Levitical priesthood.

Not by editing ... by adding more prophetic writings.

Only according to your theory ..... not according to Scripture. Your version of the trinity is a bit unusual .... could you explain HOW "Jesus is a creation of the Triune deity", and WHY you think that?

OT Judaism and Jews don't interpret a number of so-called Messianic prophecies as Christians do.

The Israelites in Egypt didn't have the Laws of Moses while in Egypt, he reformed their previous practices.

Jesus referenced the Trinity before returning to his place on high.

 

[Dartman]

OT Judaism and Jews don't interpret a number of so-called Messianic prophecies as Christians do.

For the first 3 1/2 years after Penetecost, all the "followers of Jesus" we know about were Jews. Thousands of them.

The Israelites in Egypt didn't have the Laws of Moses while in Egypt, he reformed their previous practices.

They did NOT have the Laws Jehovah gave to Moses WHILE they were in Egypt. It was at Mt. Sinai that Jehovah gave Moses the Law we call the Mosaic Law.

Jesus referenced the Trinity before returning to his place on high.

1) There is no Scripture that discusses "trinity" "triune" or "God the son", NOR is there a single instance of Jesus, or ANY of the New Testament authors EXPLAINING any tenet unique to the trinity.
2) There is no Scripture EVER that talks about Jesus "returning" to heaven ..... there are MANY that talk about Jesus "returning" to earth.

 

[Right Divider]

2) There is no Scripture EVER that talks about Jesus "returning" to heaven ..... there are MANY that talk about Jesus "returning" to earth.

1Co 15:47 KJV The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
​

The Lord FROM HEAVEN returned to heaven (Acts 1).

 

[Dartman]

1Co 15:47 KJV The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
​

The Lord FROM HEAVEN returned to heaven (Acts 1).

Nope. THIS is the only time "returned" is used in Acts 1:

Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Of course Jesus, and ALL of God's prophets came down from heaven;


James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights,


You're welcome to try again.... but no Scripture agrees with you so far. (We both know you will NEVER find one, it doesn't exist).

 

[Rosenritter]

Nope. THIS is the only time "returned" is used in Acts 1:

Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Of course Jesus, and ALL of God's prophets came down from heaven;


James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights,


You're welcome to try again.... but no Scripture agrees with you so far. (We both know you will NEVER find one, it doesn't exist).

No, "all the prophets of the Lord came down from heaven" is completely false. You can try to find a scripture to establish that, but we all know you're never going to find it....

John 3:11-13 KJV
(11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
(12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 6:38 KJV
(38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 17:5 KJV
(5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[7djengo7]

Nope. THIS is the only time "returned" is used in Acts 1:

Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Of course Jesus, and ALL of God's prophets came down from heaven;


James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights,


You're welcome to try again.... but no Scripture agrees with you so far. (We both know you will NEVER find one, it doesn't exist).

"Nope", you wrote. What (if anything), specifically, were you denying, there? That Jesus, in Acts 1, returned to heaven? For you to deny that Jesus returned to heaven is especially stupid, since, shortly after saying "Nope", you stated that Jesus "came down from heaven". Think about that for a second:

• You affirmed that Jesus "came down from heaven".
• Acts 1 declares that Jesus "went up" (v. 10) "into heaven" (v. 11).
• Yet, you deny that Jesus RETURNED to heaven!

Astounding!

Here is Acts 1:10-11 KJV:

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus having come down from heaven (as you admit He did), it is the case that, for Jesus to, then, go up into heaven is for Jesus to go back to heaven--to return to heaven. Acts 1, then, indeed declares that Jesus RETURNED to heaven. What verse(s) do you imagine DENY that Jesus returned to heaven?

What (if anything) would you say is the difference between going back to heaven and returning to heaven?

 

[7djengo7]

ALL of God's prophets came down from heaven;

When would you say that occurred?

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights,

But, what does James 1:17 have to do with your claim that "ALL of God's prophets came down from heaven"? Absolutely nothing. Also, taste your own medicine: the word "heaven" is not even found in James 1.

 

[Caino]

For the first 3 1/2 years after Penetecost, all the "followers of Jesus" we know about were Jews. Thousands of them.

They did NOT have the Laws Jehovah gave to Moses WHILE they were in Egypt. It was at Mt. Sinai that Jehovah gave Moses the Law we call the Mosaic Law.

1) There is no Scripture that discusses "trinity" "triune" or "God the son", NOR is there a single instance of Jesus, or ANY of the New Testament authors EXPLAINING any tenet unique to the trinity.
2) There is no Scripture EVER that talks about Jesus "returning" to heaven ..... there are MANY that talk about Jesus "returning" to earth.

Before Jesus came down from heaven, the Jews didn't think of God having a Son in heaven, they didn't think of the Messiah going up to heaven where Jesus is now.

Since Jesus came down from heaven, when he went up to heaven they didn't need to say "returned".

Jesus was a divine Son of God, he said as much, the Jews didn't like that.

 

[Caino]

When would you say that occurred?






But, what does James 1:17 have to do with your claim that "ALL of God's prophets came down from heaven"? Absolutely nothing. Also, taste your own medicine: the word "heaven" is not even found in James 1.

Dartman is a Biblical Unitarian, they are rabidly anti Trinity and anti-divinity of Jesus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_unitarianism

 

[7djengo7]

Biblical Unitarian

That phrase is an oxymoron. Nobody is both Biblical and a Unitarian.