The Sleep of Death in Sheol, the Two Resurrections, and the Lake of Fire Judgment

[cgaviria]

I admit that I missed the transition between the two altars. Thank you for pointing that out; however, it does not change the fact that both altars are in heaven because the tabernacle on earth was an exact replica of that which was in heaven. Besides that, after the first four seals were opened, John was called to "come and see." When the fifth seal was opened he was not called to come and see because what was being seen was in heaven where he was...

So then answer these two questions, where was Jesus Christ offered up to God from? And do sacrifices happen in heaven? Simple one word answers will suffice.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why should it come as a surprise that Revelation, being mainly figurative, would not also have passages such as the ones you are quoting, to also be figurative?

If what is said here is not to be taken in a literal sense then it has to have a different meaning, one which makes sense:

"The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (Rev.4:10-11).​

What is your interpretation of the meaning of this passage?

 

[cgaviria]

If what is said here is not to be taken in a literal sense then it has to have a different meaning, one which makes sense:

"The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (Rev.4:10-11).​

What is your interpretation of the meaning of this passage?

I do not know, because I have not studied this area of scripture thoroughly. But I know it is figurative, gathering from the context of the entire passage.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I do not know, because I have not studied this area of scripture thoroughly. But I know it is figurative, gathering from the context of the entire passage.

You know what it doesn't mean but you do not know what it means! How can you possibly know what it doesn't mean since you do not know what it means?

Of course you must deny what is said there because it contradicts your preconceived ideas! Now let us look at this passage:

" After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God" (Rev.7:9-11).​

Of course this is referring to "men," those of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. And they are all around of the throne which is in heaven.

 

[cgaviria]

You know what it doesn't mean but you do not know what it means! How can you possibly know what it doesn't mean since you do not know what it means?

Of course you must deny what is said there because it contradicts your preconceived ideas! Now let us look at this passage:

" After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God" (Rev.7:9-11).​

Of course this is referring to "men," those of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. And they are all around of the throne which is in heaven.

Must someone know the interpretation of the beasts of revelation to know it is figurative? No. It is you, on the contrary, who wants to take this passage literally to find support for your own preconceived ideas.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You know what it doesn't mean but you do not know what it means! How can you possibly know what it doesn't mean since you do not know what it means?

Of course you must deny what is said there because it contradicts your preconceived ideas! Now let us look at this passage:

" After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God" (Rev.7:9-11).​

Of course this is referring to "men," those of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. And they are all around of the throne which is in heaven.

No.

The Throne is on earth at that time, in the Heavenly Jerusalem, but the great multitude are outside and only being led to living waters.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Isa 49:17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
Isa 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
Isa 49:19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
Isa 49:20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
Isa 49:21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
Isa 49:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
Isa 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
Isa 49:24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
Isa 49:25 But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
Isa 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

HA HA!

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" [/I](Rev.6:9-10).​

The souls of those who were slain must have been sleepwalking!

HA HA!

No.

The verses are showing what these slain people mean to God, though they be dead.

Does blood cry from the ground?

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Pro 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

LA

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Throne is on earth at that time, in the Heavenly Jerusalem, but the great multitude are outside and only being led to living waters.

Here we see the elders who worship at the throne of God:

"And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God" (Rev.7:10-11).​

Of course the throne of God is in heaven, as witnessed by what we read here:

"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne... The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (Rev.4:2,10-11).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Does blood cry from the ground?

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Of course blood does not cry from the ground. But in fact a man can cry with a loud voice:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" [/I](Rev.6:9-10).​

Do the dead who are supposedly asleep and unconscious able to do this?:

"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne... The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (Rev.4:2,10-11).​

At least you people are good for a laugh or two!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why should it come as a surprise that Revelation, being mainly figurative, would not also have passages such as the ones you are quoting, to also be figurative? Did you somehow not catch the verses preceding these verses you quoted that read as follows,

Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. (Revelation 4:6-7 [NIV])

Are we to also take these verses literally that this creatures literally exist as described, or could it just possibly be, that just like most other passages in Revelation, this passage is figurative and has an interpretation to be discovered and extracted? Common now, be intelligent. You are misinterpreting these scriptures in contradiction of other scriptures, which I have stated in this study.

So you do not know that the four beasts are seraphims, each having six wings:

"And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev.4:8).​

"Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly" (Isa.6:2).​

Just because you do not understand what is being said at Revelation 4:1 does not mean that the verses which I quoted cannot be taken literally. Of course a literal reading of what is said at Revelation 4:9-11 proves that your ideas are in error.

You realize that and the only defense which you can come up with is the idea that these verses cannot be taken literally.

 

[jamie]

Of course this is referring to "men," those of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. And they are all around of the throne which is in heaven.

Yes, we know God has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

We already know that.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Of course blood does not cry from the ground. But in fact a man can cry with a loud voice:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" [/I](Rev.6:9-10).​

Do the dead who are supposedly asleep and unconscious able to do this?:

"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne... The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (Rev.4:2,10-11).​

At least you people are good for a laugh or two!

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

 

[cgaviria]

So you do not know that the four beasts are seraphims, each having six wings:

"And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev.4:8).​

"Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly" (Isa.6:2).​

Just because you do not understand what is being said at Revelation 4:1 does not mean that the verses which I quoted cannot be taken literally. Of course a literal reading of what is said at Revelation 4:9-11 proves that your ideas are in error.

You realize that and the only defense which you can come up with is the idea that these verses cannot be taken literally.

Still being a hard head? The passage is figurative, hence,

The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. (Revelation 4:7 [NIV])

Do you suppose that the seraphim literally look like animals?

 

[CherubRam]

...

Telling Christians that Christ came speaking in parables does little good. No matter how many times you tell them, they think the words are literal. Sheol never, ever, means "Hell." The word Sheol means "grave." Hell is a Pagan belief. Gehenna is a word used as a parable to mean destruction.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Still being a hard head?

Tell us why we shouldn't believe that these men are not in heaven?:

"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne... The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (Rev.4:2,10-11).​

Of course these elders are seen in heaven. Why are you still refusing to use your brain?

The passage is figurative, hence,

The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. (Revelation 4:7 [NIV])

Do you suppose that the seraphim literally look like animals?

Just because one part of the scene in heaven is stated in symbolic terms does not even hint that the rest cannot be taken in a literal sense. Besides that, if the whole scene is not to be taken literally then it must have another meaning. What is that meaning?

 

[jamie]

Tell us why we shouldn't believe that these men are not in heaven?:

David was a friend of God, why does the holy Spirit say David is not in heaven?

 

[jamie]

Jerry, I really think you have no idea what "heaven" is or where it is.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

David was a friend of God, why does the holy Spirit say David is not in heaven?

Of course you did not answer my question here because you want no one to see just how great is your unbelief:

Tell us why we shouldn't believe that these men are not in heaven?:

"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne... The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (Rev.4:2,10-11).​

Jerry, I really think you have no idea what "heaven" is or where it is.

jamie, I really think that you have no idea where your "mind" is because you lost it!

 

[jamie]

Tell us why we shouldn't believe that these men are not in heaven?:

It's simple, the resurrection to spirit has not yet occurred.

Be patient.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It's simple, the resurrection to spirit has not yet occurred.

Where in the Bible do we read of a "resurrection to spirit"?