The Sleep of Death in Sheol, the Two Resurrections, and the Lake of Fire Judgment

[Veritas veritate]

I did, hence my response. It is difficult to reason with someone who is drunk in their own false reasonings. Read the studies I wrote up along with scripture references and sober up, simmer on them, and then perhaps we can have an intelligent conversation.

Drunk on my false reasoning? If that were the case I would still be telling you that you are condemned to eternal torment in Hell, advocating the pre-tribulation rapture, and on the line between predestination as Calvin saw it and freewill. When the Holy Spirit showed me the truth, I realized that there is no need to base any doctrine on something that must be inferred from what is written in the Bible. What I believe is written as plain as day in the Bible if it is taken correctly in context.

I have read your Bible studies and have already pulled on the loose threads and it has unraveled. You pick out single verses out of context and in several different translations in order to force the Bible to say what you want to believe.

The day I stopped reading my beliefs within the Bible and started believing what is written within, is the day that my humanistic, selfish beliefs were shattered. Now, not only does the Bible no longer contradict itself, it no longer contradicts the very character and nature of God. Anything other than the the complete and perfect work of Jesus the Messiah goes against the very being that is the Eternal One.


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[cgaviria]

Drunk on my false reasoning? If that were the case I would still be telling you that you are condemned to eternal torment in Hell, advocating the pre-tribulation rapture, and on the line between predestination as Calvin saw it and freewill. When the Holy Spirit showed me the truth, I realized that there is no need to base any doctrine on something that must be inferred from what is written in the Bible. What I believe is written as plain as day in the Bible of it is taken correctly in context.

I have read your Bible studies and have already pulled on the loose threads and it has unraveled. You pick out single verses out of context and in several different translations in order to force the Bible to say what you want to believe.

The day I stopped reading my beliefs within the Bible and started believing what is written within, is the day that my humanistic, selfish beliefs were shattered. Now, not only does the Bible no longer contradict itself, it no longer contradicts the very character and nature of God. Anything other than the the complete and perfect work of Jesus the Messiah goes against the very being that is the Eternal One.


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Fine, then don't become sober. I am weary trying to reason with some of you.

 

[Tambora]

Fine, then don't become sober. I am weary trying to reason with some of you.

Having your man-made theories get blasted to bits is quite wearisome for you.

 

[cgaviria]

Having your man-made theories get blasted to bits is quite wearisome for you.

No, being grieved by your own hardness of heart is wearisome to me. Nothing of what I have said is incorrect in accordance with scripture, so you guys can blast and insult me all day long and I will still continue be right. Yet I will still continue pleading with you guys in hopes that I might make one of you realize the error of your own way, and lead you to the truth of Jesus Christ.

 

[jamie]

Soul Sleep is a doctrine only held by a very small number of denominations. Mainly JWs, SDAs, and the sects of CoG (roots from Herbert Armstrongs worldwide Church of God).
Most denominations recognize the flaws and reject it.

Good point. We know Paul did not believe those who have eternal life sleep until their resurrection.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep... (1 Corinthians 15:51)​

And Jesus denied soul sleep.

Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. (John 11:12-13)​

 

[cgaviria]

Good point. We know Paul did not believe those who have eternal life sleep until their resurrection.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep... (1 Corinthians 15:51)​

And Jesus denied soul sleep.

Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. (John 11:12-13)​

What a terrible misinterpretation of these scriptures. Paul said "we shall not all sleep" to mean that we shall not all die, since there will be those who will never taste death since they will be alive at the coming of Jesus Christ, hence this verse that follows shortly thereafter,

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52 [NIV])

In which case, this trumpet that sounds in relation to this entire passage is the same trumpet that is blown at the coming of Jesus Christ,

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31 [NIV])

So Paul is indeed associating sleep with death.

And next, how could John 11:12-13 deny soul sleep if in fact Jesus was associating what he said as "sleeping" to mean death, hence why the disciples were confused? Hello?

Please please please THINK, do you not realize your own error?

 

[jamie]

What a terrible misinterpretation of these scriptures.

Oh, bummer, did I misunderstand?

Those scriptures are so ambiguous how could a poor soul like me ever understand?

Thanks for explaining.

I'm just a simple soul, a poor little lamb who has lost her way, baa, baa, baa.

And no I never went to Yale.

 

[Veritas veritate]

Truth of Jesus Christ? The truth of Jesus Christ is that He died, was buried, and rose again according to the scriptures; thus becoming the Savior of all men, justifying all men to life, and forgiving the sins of all those who are sealed through faith with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Again, you look for what you believe in the Bible, you do not believe what is found therein.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because the dead do not have thoughts, since the dead are not conscious. And as such, it is the soul of a man that goes to Sheol at death

HA HA!

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" [/I](Rev.6:9-10).​

The souls of those who were slain must have been sleepwalking!

HA HA!

 

[cgaviria]

Truth of Jesus Christ? The truth of Jesus Christ is that He died, was buried, and rose again according to the scriptures; thus becoming the Savior of all men, justifying all men to life, and forgiving the sins of all those who are sealed through faith with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Again, you look for what you believe in the Bible, you do not believe what is found therein.

Anyone can make those declarations, doesn't mean they will be spared from judgment of the lava lake. Are you doing the will of God?

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21 [NIV])

Are you breaking God's laws?

But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.' (Matthew 7:23 [NLT])

Have you humbled yourself?

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Matthew 19:21 [NIV])

All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, (Acts 2:44-46 [NIV])

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[Veritas veritate]

Anyone can make those declarations, doesn't mean they will be spared from judgment of the lava lake. Are you doing the will of God?

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21 [NIV])

Are you breaking God's laws?

But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.' (Matthew 7:23 [NLT])

Have you humbled yourself?

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Matthew 19:21 [NIV])

All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, (Acts 2:44-46 [NIV])

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Are you? Get behind me Satan!

You see, Satan is the one behind all attempts to accuse believers. However, my faith rests in the finished work of Jesus the Messiah and I am now seen by the Eternal One through the righteousness and perfection of His only begotten son. I still wrestle with my flesh, however my goal is to continue in the love of the Eternal One wherein His Spirit will continue to sanctify me as I strive toward the perfection of Jesus until the day I die. I will never reach that perfection, but thank God that the righteousness and perfection of Jesus the messiah has been imputed to me that I may, at the end of the ages, stand in the presence of God with confidence in His Son...

 

[cgaviria]

Are you? Get behind me Satan!

You see, Satan is the one behind all attempts to accuse believers. However, my faith rests in the finished work of Jesus the Messiah and I am now seen by the Eternal One through the righteousness and perfection of His only begotten son. I still wrestle with my flesh, however my goal is to continue in the love of the Eternal One wherein His Spirit will continue to sanctify me as I strive toward the perfection of Jesus until the day I die. I will never reach that perfection, but thank God that the righteousness and perfection of Jesus the messiah has been imputed to me that I may, at the end of the ages, stand in the presence of God with confidence in His Son...

Satan no longer accuses the brethren, because there is no longer any accusation that can be made against the brethren, since the brethren have already been perfected by the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which was the purpose of his first coming, to not only atone for sin, but to also bring an end to sin, hence,

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24 [KJV])

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

This is only possible with the baptism of the holy spirit, in which case only a few have been chosen to receive this seal of salvation and sanctification. I suspected that you still "wrestled with your flesh", since by all your other erroneous commentaries I can also perceive that you are also led astray by a false notion that perfection is not possible, so you allow yourself to unwittingly continue sinning surmising that your mere faith without works will save you. I have two more verses for you,

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34 [NIV])

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27 [KJV])

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because the dead do not have thoughts, since the dead are not conscious. And as such, it is the soul of a man that goes to Sheol at death

HA HA!

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" [/I](Rev.6:9-10).​

The souls of those who were slain must have been sleepwalking!

HA HA!

 

[cgaviria]

HA HA!

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" [/I](Rev.6:9-10).​

The souls of those who were slain must have been sleepwalking!

HA HA!

Did it not occur to you that the fifth seal is figurative? Where do you suppose this altar is? It's certainly not in heaven, as sacrifices are not performed in heaven.

 

[Veritas veritate]

Did it not occur to you that the fifth seal is figurative? Where do you suppose this altar is? It's certainly not in heaven, as sacrifices are not performed in heaven.

So the altar is figurative, but the lake of fire is literal? Make up your mind.


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[Veritas veritate]

Satan no longer accuses the brethren, because there is no longer any accusation that can be made against the brethren, since the brethren have already been perfected by the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which was the purpose of his first coming, to not only atone for sin, but to also bring an end to sin, hence,

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24 [KJV])

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

This is only possible with the baptism of the holy spirit, in which case only a few have been chosen to receive this seal of salvation and sanctification. I suspected that you still "wrestled with your flesh", since by all your other erroneous commentaries I can also perceive that you are also led astray by a false notion that perfection is not possible, so you allow yourself to unwittingly continue sinning surmising that your mere faith without works will save you. I have two more verses for you,

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34 [NIV])

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27 [KJV])

Do you believe that you are perfect now and do not sin?

 

[cgaviria]

So the altar is figurative, but the lake of fire is literal? Make up your mind.


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Based on knowledge of other scriptures, yes. The dead do not go to heaven, they go to Sheol, as Jesus Christ once did. So this altar, that has the souls of martyrs below it, is figurative for the "earth", wherein the souls of men are in Sheol below the earth. These souls are the the prophets of old who were martyred before those who would be martyred for the testimony of Jesus Christ, hence why these are distinctly identified as those who were martyred for the "word of God" as opposed to the "testimony of Jesus Christ", in which case this distinction is made elsewhere in Revelation in relation to who is granted authority to judge.

The lake of fire judgment is indeed literal, because in other prophecies, such as in Isaiah, this place is spoken of literally, wherein there will be dead bodies that will be seen by those around the lava lake. It will be a disgusting place on the earth, with billions of bodies burned by lava and rotting from decay.

 

[Veritas veritate]

Based on knowledge of other scriptures, yes. The dead do not go to heaven, they go to Sheol, as Jesus Christ once did. So this altar, that has the souls of martyrs below it, is figurative for the "earth", wherein the souls of men are in Sheol below the earth. These souls are the the prophets of old who were martyred before those who would be martyred for the testimony of Jesus Christ, hence why these are distinctly identified as those who were martyred for the "word of God" as opposed to the "testimony of Jesus Christ", in which case this distinction is made elsewhere in Revelation in relation to who is granted authority to judge.

The lake of fire judgment is indeed literal, because in other prophecies, such as in Isaiah, this place is spoken of literally, wherein there will be dead bodies that will be seen by those around the lava lake. It will be a disgusting place on the earth, with billions of bodies burned by lava and rotting from decay.

I have already shown how you have taken the passage in Isaiah out of context... Furthermore, where in scripture do you see that the lake of fire is a lava lake?

As for the altar, how is it in the earth if the fire of it will be cast into the earth in Revelation chapter 8?

 

[cgaviria]

I have already shown how you have taken the passage in Isaiah out of context... Furthermore, where in scripture do you see that the lake of fire is a lava lake?

As for the altar, how is it in the earth if the fire of it will be cast into the earth in Revelation chapter 8?

Because there are two altars, one for offerings, and the other for incense. I suggest you read how the tabernacle was setup, which foreshadows these particular realities. Jesus Christ was offered up on the altar of the earth, in which case his blood was poured on the base of altar, which is the ground. The altar of incense, however, is in heaven.


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[Eagles Wings]

No, being grieved by your own hardness of heart is wearisome to me. Nothing of what I have said is incorrect in accordance with scripture, so you guys can blast and insult me all day long and I will still continue be right. Yet I will still continue pleading with you guys in hopes that I might make one of you realize the error of your own way, and lead you to the truth of Jesus Christ.

You are presumptuous and full of ego, to judge the state of another's heart.

Christian, your views on Scripture are not the be all and the end all. You are not a modern day prophet so it would behoove you to cut the drama.