The Slaying of Reformed Theology (Calvinism)

[daqq]

I'll try to find a better link. That was the immediate fix.

Easier to point here for that: http://biblehub.com/text/1_john/2-27.htm

 

[meshak]

The Trinity is not a conspiracy, or whatever reason you think it exists universally in Christianity- it is simply an inevitability. That is why nobody, either layman or theological genius, wants to debate an anti-trinitarian.

It seems clear to me trinity was developed to create division against true Jesus' followers.

That's why it is so popular among elitist Christians.

They are united to go against Jesus' teachings of "love".

Their campaign phrase of "if you don't believe in trinity, you are heretics, cult, unsaved and non-believer" is working very well.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Easier to point here for that: http://biblehub.com/text/1_john/2-27.htm

Thank you! That link looks much better than all that stacked into a single column.

 

[Crucible]

Beyond Jesus, I'm not recognizing human Authority in scripture. Deal with it. Jesus said Jn. 5:36-40. What do we call scripture? It was canonized within 300 years of Christ's death. End... of... issue.

Two things:

1) You're going by your own interpretive authority, you jack wagon :doh:
I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH CLEARER I CAN MAKE THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT TO YOU

2) The Apostles quote Jesus- there is no 'Book of Jesus'. You appeal to human authority EVERY TIME YOU OPEN UP THE BIBLE

 

[meshak]

EE,

I must admit that you are the only MADist who call non-trins as your brethren.

good for you

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Two things:

1) You're going by your own interpretive authority, you jack wagon :doh:
I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH CLEARER I CAN MAKE THIS

2) The Apostles quote Jesus- there is no 'Book of Jesus'. You appeal to human authority EVERY TIME YOU OPEN UP THE BIBLE.

I challenge Dogma that came over 1000 years after Christ by denouncing extra biblical doctrine...
[MENTION=17677]Crucible[/MENTION] responds I'm doing this of my own authority.

Well, if your forefathers hadn't of JACKED UP "Sola Scripture", we wouldn't be here on this OP would we?

Edit in...

Allow me to explain my point...

We are reformed!

Soli Grace
Soli Christ
Soli Scripture
Soli De Gloria
Soli Faith

Note... Anglicans are reccomending adding (Soli Love)... Imagine that

Wow Soli Scripture?

Yes, now here's 1000 books to aid in your "Soli Scripture" journey.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

True, true, he talks of people as if a "pile" who are "as theologically inclined as a rock" but fails to notice the mountain of Rock Scripture which he is now buried beneath and which is continually added onto more and more with every passing page . . .



Perhaps he may pop like a fully ripe grape under the weight of the Stone he is rejecting?
Heard it said that the Word can be like a wine-press to the grapes of wrath . . . :chuckle:

: )

 

[meshak]

-meshak is probably the most thoroughly brainwashed heretic I have ever seen on a forum, ever

Wow, I am honored by this comment. thank you

Yes, I am brainwashed by Jesus' teaching. that's why I don't belong to any organization or denomination.

blessings.

 

[daqq]

Two things:

1) You're going by your own interpretive authority, you jack wagon :doh:
I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH CLEARER I CAN MAKE THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT TO YOU

2) The Apostles quote Jesus- there is no 'Book of Jesus'. You appeal to human authority EVERY TIME YOU OPEN UP THE BIBLE

I challenge Dogma that came over 1000 years after Christ by denouncing extra biblical doctrine...
@Crucible responds I'm doing this of my own authority.

Well, if your forefathers hadn't of JACKED UP "Sola Scripture", we wouldn't be here on this OP would we?

Edit in...

Allow me to explain my point...

We are reformed!

Soli Grace
Soli Christ
Soli Scripture
Soli De Gloria
Soli Faith

Note... Anglicans are reccomending adding (Soli Love)... Imagine that

Wow Soli Scripture?

Yes, now here's 1000 books to aid in you "Soli Scripture" journey.

I was going to ask Crucible what exactly he meant by "BACK SECTION OF THE BIBLE", (as it appears in your quote), but it looks like he may have edited that part so you might want to fix that also in your quote of his statement, (or if not at least you know about it now, eh?).

 

[Crucible]

Wow, I am honored by this comment. thank you

Yes, I am brainwashed by Jesus' teaching. that's why I don't belong to any organization or denomination.

blessings.

No, you're just plain brainwashed

It's the only regimen that can make a person believe things such as pure pacifism to a point of being irresponsible to the most basic virtues of protecting others.

I mean, come on now :chuckle:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

No, you're just plain brainwashed

It's the only regimen that can make a person believe things such as pure pacifism to a point of irresponsibility for those who need to be protected.

I mean, come on now :chuckle:

We could all beat on [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION], but why? You're so much more fun to provoke. Show me your warface Private Pyle.

#Bad.Evil.<(I)>

 

[Crucible]

extra biblical doctrine

'Extra biblical doctrine' is the Pope declaring that Mary ascended into Heaven before her natural death.

You don't even use those words correctly.

You know what, I AM done with this thread now, as it is nothing more than TOL's small congregation of heretics. I'll see you all on another thread which isn't filled to the brim with nonsense :wave2:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I've got to get my day rolling. I love you all... (Even [MENTION=17677]Crucible[/MENTION]).

I'll be back later.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

'Extra biblical doctrine' is the Pope declaring that Mary ascended into Heaven before her natural death.
(Sneaky Evil.Eye.<(I)> edits in TULIP)

You don't even use those words correctly.

You know what, I AM done with this thread now, as it is nothing more than TOL's small congregation of heretics. I'll see you all on another thread which isn't filled to the brim with nonsense (Evil.Eye.<(I)> adds :CRASH:wave2:

It's funny... You rail against Cathothiaism, but you have your own Ecshatology Pope and Doctrinal Pope.

P.s. Most of the sins you attribute to condemnation came right from Papal mandates. Also, much of your core doctrines come straight out of the Catechism.

Don't believe me? Crack one open and prepare to have your mind blown.

: )

#Reformed Plagiarism

 

[meshak]

No, you're just plain brainwashed

It's the only regimen that can make a person believe things such as pure pacifism to a point of being irresponsible to the most basic virtues of protecting others.

I mean, come on now :chuckle:

This kind of comment come from people who don't know Jesus' teachings.

I am most shunned by many Christians in this forum because of it. I am not playing victim. This is the fact, and expected. I hardly get much support even from non-trins.

Do you see Jesus and any apostles killing their enemy? None.

Jesus showed us good example of pacifism teaching. Jesus says to imitate Him. Why do you disregard His word?

 

[Brother Ducky]

Like leader, Calvin, like follower. Remember what Calvin did to his enemy Christian?

I suspect that you are referring to Servetus, who, being a non-trinitarian would not be considered to be a Christian by most Christians. Certainly not in 16th century Geneva.

However, why should it matter. Calvin made statements. They are right or wrong. His character has nothing to do with that.

 

[meshak]

I suspect that you are referring to Servetus, who, being a non-trinitarian would not be considered to be a Christian by most Christians. Certainly not in 16th century Geneva.

However, why should it matter. Calvin made statements. They are right or wrong. His character has nothing to do with that.

Yes, it does.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. His violent and pharisaic practice is his evil fruit.

Truth is not in violent or militant people.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I suspect that you are referring to Servetus, who, being a non-trinitarian would not be considered to be a Christian by most Christians. Certainly not in 16th century Geneva.

However, why should it matter. Calvin made statements. They are right or wrong. His character has nothing to do with that.

He chose those whom he would save. The others are already objects of wrath.

Can man choose to believe of his own "freewill" if he is reprobate?

If you are distinguishing between reprobate and elect here, no.

Are there people that are incapable of being saved because God deemed them reprobate and made them "objects of wrath" before they were ever born?

[MENTION=10685]Brother Ducky[/MENTION]

Note.... You said this early on.

Almost all will approach scripture with some form of lens or system. In and of itself, that is a good thing; no need to reinvent. Of course there should be the provision and desire to allow for changes as needed. It seems to me that Reformed folk have our lenses front and center with presuppositions and biases well known and both loved and hated.

I can't think of any Calvinist who would argue against your points 5 and 6. We, of course, believe that God is Love.

How is that checkmate?

You made a comment about extrabiblical commentaries earlier in reference to Puritan books...

However, because of your earlier assertion that God is Love...

I cite 1 Peter 4:8 and thus... you are fully moving forward and contending justly.

 

[nikolai_42]

[MENTION=5671]nikolai_42[/MENTION]

I am submitting all of 1 John 2 from the Complete Jewish Bible for context provision. I will also submit various additions to this post via edit. The lingual intent will be posted with the Greek to literal and I will find cross referenced verses that correlate intent.

1 John 2 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

My children, I am writing you these things so that you won’t sin. But if anyone does sin, we have Yeshua the Messiah, the Tzaddik, who pleads our cause with the Father. 2 Also, he is the kapparah for our sins — and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.

3 The way we can be sure we know him is if we are obeying his commands. 4 Anyone who says, “I know him,” but isn’t obeying his commands is a liar — the truth is not in him. 5 But if someone keeps doing what he says, then truly love for God has been brought to its goal in him. This is how we are sure that we are united with him. 6 A person who claims to be continuing in union with him ought to conduct his life the way he did.

7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command. On the contrary, it is an old command, which you have had from the beginning; the old command is the message which you have heard before. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command, and its reality is seen both in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. 9 Anyone who claims to be in this light while hating his brother is still in the dark. 10 The person who keeps loving his brother remains in the light, and there is nothing in him that could make him trip. 11 But the person who hates his brother is in the dark — yes, he is walking in the dark, and he doesn’t know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

12 You children, I am writing you
because your sins have been forgiven for his sake.
13 You fathers, I am writing you
because you have known him who has existed from the beginning.
You young people, I am writing you
because you have overcome the Evil One.
14 You children, I have written you
because you have known the Father.
You fathers, I have written you
because you have known him who has existed from the beginning.
You young people, I have written you
because you are strong —
the Word of God remains in you,
and you have overcome the Evil One.
15 Do not love the world or the things of the world. If someone loves the world, then love for the Father is not in him; 16 because all the things of the world — the desires of the old nature, the desires of the eyes, and the pretensions of life — are not from the Father but from the world. 17 And the world is passing away, along with its desires. But whoever does God’s will remains forever.

18 Children, this is the Last Hour. You have heard that an Anti-Messiah is coming; and in fact, many anti-Messiahs have arisen now — which is how we know that this is the Last Hour. 19 They went out from us, but they weren’t part of us; for had they been part of us, they would have remained with us.

20 But you have received the Messiah’s anointing from HaKadosh, and you know all this. 21 It is not because you don’t know the truth that I have written to you, but because you do know it, and because no lie has its origin in the truth. 22 Who is a liar at all, if not the person who denies that Yeshua is the Messiah? Such a person is an anti-Messiah — he is denying the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone who denies the Son is also without the Father, but the person who acknowledges the Son has the Father as well. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with both the Son and the Father. 25 And this is what he has promised us: eternal life.

26 I have written you these things about the people who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the Messianic anointing you received from the Father remains in you, so that you have no need for anyone to teach you. On the contrary, as his Messianic anointing continues to teach you about all things, and is true, not a counterfeit, so, just as he taught you, remain united with him.

28 And now, children, remain united with him; so that when he appears, we may have confidence and not shrink back from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you should also know that he is the Father of everyone who does what is right.

1 John 2:27 Interlinear Link (Lexicon to Greek and Transliteration)

Link to Literal over Greek

Cross referenced verses that assist.

Jn. 4:14, 14:16-17, 26, 15:4-7, 16:13; 1 Cor. 2:12-13; 1 Jn. 2:20; 2 Jn. 1:2; 2 Pt. 1:16-17; 1 Pt. 1:23; He. 8:10-11; Je. 31:33-34

This is NOT the sum and substance of my lost post, but what if these Puritans and Calvinists you reject as teachers were also taught by that same Spirit? Would you rob the world of what they have received of God to explain the scriptures?

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Matthew 13:52

Note also the difference between teaching and exegeting. I am sure you are far more familiar with the Greek than I am, but I John 2:27 speaks of men being taught by the Spirit of God. As does John 6:45 (with clear references to Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:34). But exegesis is found in the unfolding of what God has revealed and taught. For example, in Acts 10:8, Cornelius exegetes to his attendants what the angel of God told him. It wasn't teaching, but it was explaining and detailing. Exegesis can be much more than just reading. Stephen's deathbed sermon was an exegesis of most of Israel's history. A condensation, yes, but a retelling for a certain purpose to bring out a point.

But even beyond that, there is a ministry of teaching that works with the Holy Spirit (not instead of it):

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I Corinthians 2:7-14

So a teacher is given wisdom of God. He isn't given it of man. But that doesn't stop Paul from teaching as he does. He is teaching what the Spirit has revealed. That doesn't mean those that hear will understand, but rather that by his teaching, the Spirit can reveal to the hearer what the truth is. By this passage, it can't be any other way. But that doesn't stop a man from teaching, exegeting, expressing the truth of God by his understanding. That man may understand it, but the fact remains that no hearer will receive it unless the Spirit of God opens his eyes and ears and heart. And Paul isn't simply speaking to unbelievers :

For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
I Corinthians 4:17

The teaching John speaks of in his epistle indeed is only the work of God. But he isn't, in one sentence, removing the necessity for teachers in the Body of Christ :

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God
Ephesians 3:9-10

(Not that we are necessarily doing what Paul is doing - declaring the purpose of the church - but that teachers are a part of fulfilling what Paul said is the church's purpose)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ephesians 4:11-14

I venture to say that this isn't accomplished yet. So I don't see an issue with these teachers.

EDIT : Note that this is not an exhaustive treatment in any sense of the term. The scriptures are the only objective way we have been given to judge the words of others (teachers and otherwise). So saying everyone is "taught of God" isn't saying everyone should be teaching. Just that the Holy Spirit is faithful to bring to mind, apply to heart etc... what each individual needs.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This is NOT the sum and substance of my lost post, but what if these Puritans and Calvinists you reject as teachers were also taught by that same Spirit? Would you rob the world of what they have received of God to explain the scriptures?

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Matthew 13:52

Note also the difference between teaching and exegeting. I am sure you are far more familiar with the Greek than I am, but I John 2:27 speaks of men being taught by the Spirit of God. As does John 6:45 (with clear references to Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:34). But exegesis is found in the unfolding of what God has revealed and taught. For example, in Acts 10:8, Cornelius exegetes to his attendants what the angel of God told him. It wasn't teaching, but it was explaining and detailing. Exegesis can be much more than just reading. Stephen's deathbed sermon was an exegesis of most of Israel's history. A condensation, yes, but a retelling for a certain purpose to bring out a point.

But even beyond that, there is a ministry of teaching that works with the Holy Spirit (not instead of it):

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I Corinthians 2:7-14

So a teacher is given wisdom of God. He isn't given it of man. But that doesn't stop Paul from teaching as he does. He is teaching what the Spirit has revealed. That doesn't mean those that hear will understand, but rather that by his teaching, the Spirit can reveal to the hearer what the truth is. By this passage, it can't be any other way. But that doesn't stop a man from teaching, exegeting, expressing the truth of God by his understanding. That man may understand it, but the fact remains that no hearer will receive it unless the Spirit of God opens his eyes and ears and heart. And Paul isn't simply speaking to unbelievers :

For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
I Corinthians 4:17

The teaching John speaks of in his epistle indeed is only the work of God. But he isn't, in one sentence, removing the necessity for teachers in the Body of Christ :

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God
Ephesians 3:9-10

(Not that we are necessarily doing what Paul is doing - declaring the purpose of the church - but that teachers are a part of fulfilling what Paul said is the church's purpose)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ephesians 4:11-14

I venture to say that this isn't accomplished yet. So I don't see an issue with these teachers.

First and Foremost...

I am pleased to receive your carefully written response. You have gone to great lengths to share your convictions on this matter. Anyone who sees this should understand the difficult, painstaking efforts you placed into writing this.

I will not be a horses rear and childishly counter debate every line of your submission... yet.

First... I want to congruently understand what you have submitted with my own mind. I challenge even those who appose Nikolai_42's perspective to do so as well. This is a scholarly submission and deserves scholarly respect!

I would like to log in later and see "everyone" asking questions to [MENTION=5671]nikolai_42[/MENTION] that help them understand every word of what he has written.

That's right! You heard me. Counter debate needs to be placed on pause! Respect and ears must now be applied.

Until this has sufficiently happened, we will not pick apart [MENTION=5671]nikolai_42[/MENTION]'s submission.
[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION], [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION], [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION], [MENTION=15338]Right Divider[/MENTION], [MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION]...

You do not have to assist in this matter, but as I'm away, I would appreciate it if you and anyone else strong in the ability to keep an OP on track ensure the following occurs. I want no attack of what [MENTION=5671]nikolai_42[/MENTION] has taken the time to write.
[MENTION=18164]Eagles Wings[/MENTION], if you have time, please help in this matter as well.

Respect to [MENTION=5671]nikolai_42[/MENTION] for this worthy submission.

Peace

#If we don't evaluate this in prayer and with respect... we're doing it wrong.