ECT the Sixth Hour in John 19:14.
- Thread starter 0scar
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vfirestormv
Member
I am not reading all 26 pages to see if this was brought up but the answer is quite easy. Mark is stating the 3rd hour from the Jewish reckoning of time from 6am which is 9am. John is stating from the Roman reckoning of time from 12am which would put Jesus in front of Pilate about 6am and then led to Calvary. Further proof of this is if you read Chater 18 before you do 19, hello...
Joh 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the rooster crew.
Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
Now I don't know what time the Rooster crows around your town but here in Newton, NC they crow at the crack of dawn. Furthermore the next verse says it was early and they led Him to the judgement hall. Plenty of time for everything to take place in front of Pilate and it be around the sixth hour when Pilate states "Behold, your king." It is amazing how people just pop a verse out without reading the whole book or chapter around that verse.
Joh 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the rooster crew.
Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
Now I don't know what time the Rooster crows around your town but here in Newton, NC they crow at the crack of dawn. Furthermore the next verse says it was early and they led Him to the judgement hall. Plenty of time for everything to take place in front of Pilate and it be around the sixth hour when Pilate states "Behold, your king." It is amazing how people just pop a verse out without reading the whole book or chapter around that verse.
0scar
New member
LIE
Roman reconing of hours was exactly the same of all civilizations in the I Century until the creation of the mechanical clocks.
There is not any evidence at all of Romans using any other time reconing of hours. There is not a single reason for scholars to believe or suspect that romans counted hours in any different way. ALL documentation is consistent in that romaans count hours as all other contemporary civilizations.
PLUS:
all time in all the Bible count hours from sunrise
all time in all Gospels and Acts, count hours from sunrise
in all John Gospels, hours are count from sunrise.
even in the case (which is not) that romans had a diferent hours, there is not any reason to say that in John 19:14 ALONE, and in no other verses, hours count differently.
MORE:
if Jesus was at the Counsil by the morning hours
if Jesus was broght firstly to Pilate at dawn (then sent to Herod, and back to Pilate)
how are we again at 6am?
lifeisgood
New member
After Pilate heard that saying (you're no friend of Caesar if you let this man go) and he gave into the mob wanting Jesus to be crucified.
vfirestormv
Member
That is untrue. Even the Jews reckoned time not only from the am but from watches in the night as well. And from evening to evening. Their day ended around 6pm and started the watches of the night. To suggest that the Romans only reckoned from the am is mere speculation.
Show me any verses in John that prove that he reckoned time from the 6am.
Luke 23:7 And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time.
Would not have had to been a long walk.
And considering that the rooster could have crowed anytime between 3:30 or 4 am there is plenty of time for all to take place.
0scar
New member
I can not go throu thousand book saaying that roman reconed time as every ancient civilization. all schollar and books are totally unanimous without room to any doubt.
read John and found a single verse where you understand other thing.
lifeisgood
New member
I do not read in John 19:14: “Jesus was crucified at this hour.”
John 19:14 says: “And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!”
NOTHING about Jesus being crucified the "sixth hour".
What John gives is the account of the proceedings leading up to the crucifixion, i.e., the general timeframe when Pilate handed Jesus over to the Roman executioners.
John 19:14 says: “And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!”
NOTHING about Jesus being crucified the "sixth hour".
What John gives is the account of the proceedings leading up to the crucifixion, i.e., the general timeframe when Pilate handed Jesus over to the Roman executioners.
0scar
New member
CORRECT
at noon Jesus was not yet crucified.
jesus was only crucified by 9am not before
lifeisgood
New member
After reading all the Scriptures concerning the proceedings leading up to the Crucifixion together, I believe that the phrase “and about the sixth hour” in John 19:14 does not refer to the time of day at all, but rather to the amount of time that had passed from the initial arrest of Jesus till the time the nation as a whole pronounced their fatal verdict of “Crucify him” .
Mark 15:25 clearly tells us “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.” and Mark 15:33 further adds: “And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.”
Both Matthew 27:45 and Luke 23:44 confirm this same truth saying: “And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.”
From the parable of the householder who went out to hire laborers into his vineyard as recorded in Matthew 20:1-12 it seems very clear that the first hour would be 6:00 a.m.; the third hour is 9:00 a.m., etc. all the way up to the 11th hour which was 5:00pm. The work day ended at the 12th hour, or 6:00p.m.
I think it should be obvious that all 4 evangelists used the same Jewish time references.
Comparing all the events from the arrest of Jesus to His Crucifixion in Matthew 26:30 thru 27:50; Mark 14:17 thru 15:38; Luke 22:1 thru 23:46 and John 18:1 thru 19:30 I see:
- Jesus and the apostles celebrated their Passover meal in the evening.
- Then they went directly to the garden of Gethsemane in the Mount of Olives where Jesus prayed but the disciples fell asleep because they were so tired.
- While it was yet very early in the morning (around 2:00 to 3:00 a.m.?) the multitude sent from the chief priests and elders came “with lanterns and torches” John 18:3 (still very dark).
- Then He was taken to the Caiaphas to be examined, and this took a good while itself - "And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed regarding Peter “of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilean. And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the (rooster) crowed." Luke 22:59-60 - roosters crow at the beginning of the day.
- Then the Lord Jesus was sent to Pilate who interviewed Him who
- Then sent Him to Herod who talked to him for a while and
- Then Herod sent Him back to Pilate once again.
- “…and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!...”
When I read the Scriptures together I can see that all these events could easily have taken up to six hours when Pilate presents the Lord to the mob, and they finally give their sentence of “Crucify Him!”
I see no contradiction.
Mark 15:25 clearly tells us “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.” and Mark 15:33 further adds: “And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.”
Both Matthew 27:45 and Luke 23:44 confirm this same truth saying: “And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.”
From the parable of the householder who went out to hire laborers into his vineyard as recorded in Matthew 20:1-12 it seems very clear that the first hour would be 6:00 a.m.; the third hour is 9:00 a.m., etc. all the way up to the 11th hour which was 5:00pm. The work day ended at the 12th hour, or 6:00p.m.
I think it should be obvious that all 4 evangelists used the same Jewish time references.
Comparing all the events from the arrest of Jesus to His Crucifixion in Matthew 26:30 thru 27:50; Mark 14:17 thru 15:38; Luke 22:1 thru 23:46 and John 18:1 thru 19:30 I see:
- Jesus and the apostles celebrated their Passover meal in the evening.
- Then they went directly to the garden of Gethsemane in the Mount of Olives where Jesus prayed but the disciples fell asleep because they were so tired.
- While it was yet very early in the morning (around 2:00 to 3:00 a.m.?) the multitude sent from the chief priests and elders came “with lanterns and torches” John 18:3 (still very dark).
- Then He was taken to the Caiaphas to be examined, and this took a good while itself - "And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed regarding Peter “of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilean. And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the (rooster) crowed." Luke 22:59-60 - roosters crow at the beginning of the day.
- Then the Lord Jesus was sent to Pilate who interviewed Him who
- Then sent Him to Herod who talked to him for a while and
- Then Herod sent Him back to Pilate once again.
- “…and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!...”
When I read the Scriptures together I can see that all these events could easily have taken up to six hours when Pilate presents the Lord to the mob, and they finally give their sentence of “Crucify Him!”
I see no contradiction.
0scar
New member
you denay John 19:14. "it was about the sixth hour" means the time of the day. John gives a day and the hour of that day, not an elapsed 6 hours from any previous event. "After one hour" or any amount of time have a totally different construction.
Jesus was at Pilate by the sixth hour. Let see what happened previously:
The 14th, the daay the passover lamb is crucified, Jesus ended that day alive and free.
Jesus was aarrested in the 15th.
When morning came (after 6am) Jesus is triaal by the Counsil during good part of the morning.
At dawn (obviously of a following day) Jesus is led to Pilate.
The Herod aand then back to Pilate.
Now it is preparation day and the ssixth hour (noon)
After that Jesus is presented together with barrabas
Later, same aafternoon, is sentenced and whipped
Later (probably next morning) carry the cross
At the Golgotha already crucified by 9am.
Jesus was at Pilate by the sixth hour. Let see what happened previously:
The 14th, the daay the passover lamb is crucified, Jesus ended that day alive and free.
Jesus was aarrested in the 15th.
When morning came (after 6am) Jesus is triaal by the Counsil during good part of the morning.
At dawn (obviously of a following day) Jesus is led to Pilate.
The Herod aand then back to Pilate.
Now it is preparation day and the ssixth hour (noon)
After that Jesus is presented together with barrabas
Later, same aafternoon, is sentenced and whipped
Later (probably next morning) carry the cross
At the Golgotha already crucified by 9am.
lifeisgood
New member
Oscar, I have four historian giving their perspective for the same event. Same event; different angles. No discrepancies at all, at least for me.
It would be like me asking two WWII veterans to give their account of WWII. Would I expect their account to be exactly the same? No, I wouldn't. However, that would not dissuade me that the account of these two veterans is true.
So, I would much rather be talking about the account of the events they went through than precisely discussing well Vet 1 says this and you Vet 2 says that, you guys are not saying the same thing. That would be ludicrous on my part.
It would be like me asking two WWII veterans to give their account of WWII. Would I expect their account to be exactly the same? No, I wouldn't. However, that would not dissuade me that the account of these two veterans is true.
So, I would much rather be talking about the account of the events they went through than precisely discussing well Vet 1 says this and you Vet 2 says that, you guys are not saying the same thing. That would be ludicrous on my part.
0scar
New member
the 4 Gospels are Word of God. can not be contradiction between one and the other. and there is no contradiction at all.
John says that Jesus was at the gabbatha by noon on trial by Pilate. that is TRUE
mark say that by 9am Jesus was already crucified at the Golgotha. that is TRUE
jesus was at the gabbatha by noon and was at the golgotha following morning.
John says that Jesus was at the gabbatha by noon on trial by Pilate. that is TRUE
mark say that by 9am Jesus was already crucified at the Golgotha. that is TRUE
jesus was at the gabbatha by noon and was at the golgotha following morning.
lifeisgood
New member
The Jews were rushing so they could eat the Passover meal and finish before morning or daylight, as they are commended in Exodus to do it early and be ready to leave by morning.
Now, if John were speaking in terms of Jewish times of day, Jesus would be before Pilate, about to be condemned, from 9am-12pm. That would be far TOO LATE in the day. It would actually be close to the END of that day, and close to the BEGINNING of the Sabbath day, wherein everyone was to rest, not still deal with the Passover work.
I see it this way: Jesus was about to be condemned at about 6am or so, and He was Crucified a little later on, between 6am and 9am (probably closer to the beginning half of the "Third Hour").
How about the inscription on the Cross? Do you have an issue with it also?
If I accept, that John wrote in Roman time, and Mark in Jewish time, other things would make sense also, including the inscription on the cross,
- Mark says: "The King of the Jews," and
- John says, "Jesus of Nazareth The King of the Jews"
- It was written in three languages: Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.
I believe Mark wrote the Hebrew form, John the Greek (or maybe Latin) form.
Another thing that makes me believe that John was using Roman time, is that John 4:52 mentions the "seventh hour". Unless I am mistaken, there was no "seventh hour" in New Testament Jewish time of day, but indeed there is in Roman time of day!
So for me Mark gave Jewish hours and John gave Roman hours; therefore no contradiction.
Now, if John were speaking in terms of Jewish times of day, Jesus would be before Pilate, about to be condemned, from 9am-12pm. That would be far TOO LATE in the day. It would actually be close to the END of that day, and close to the BEGINNING of the Sabbath day, wherein everyone was to rest, not still deal with the Passover work.
I see it this way: Jesus was about to be condemned at about 6am or so, and He was Crucified a little later on, between 6am and 9am (probably closer to the beginning half of the "Third Hour").
How about the inscription on the Cross? Do you have an issue with it also?
If I accept, that John wrote in Roman time, and Mark in Jewish time, other things would make sense also, including the inscription on the cross,
- Mark says: "The King of the Jews," and
- John says, "Jesus of Nazareth The King of the Jews"
- It was written in three languages: Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.
I believe Mark wrote the Hebrew form, John the Greek (or maybe Latin) form.
Another thing that makes me believe that John was using Roman time, is that John 4:52 mentions the "seventh hour". Unless I am mistaken, there was no "seventh hour" in New Testament Jewish time of day, but indeed there is in Roman time of day!
So for me Mark gave Jewish hours and John gave Roman hours; therefore no contradiction.
0scar
New member
0scar
New member
LIE !!!!!!!
for Jew, Roman, Greek, Sirian, Babilonians, Egyptians, etc. the seventh Rour is 1 hour after noon, it is 13:00 hrs in modern termns
0scar
New member
Roman reconing of hours was exactly the same of all civilizations in the I Century until the creation of the mechanical clocks.
There is not any evidence at all of Romans using any other time reconing of hours. There is not a single reason for scholars to believe or suspect that romans counted hours in any different way. ALL documentation is consistent in that romaans count hours as all other contemporary civilizations.
PLUS:
all time in all the Bible count hours from sunrise
all time in all Gospels and Acts, count hours from sunrise
in all John Gospels, hours are count from sunrise.
even in the case (which is not) that romans had a diferent hours, there is not any reason to say that in John 19:14 ALONE, and in no other verses, hours count differently.
MORE:
if Jesus was at the Counsil by the morning hours
if Jesus was broght firstly to Pilate at dawn (then sent to Herod, and back to Pilate)
how are we again at 6am?
There is not any evidence at all of Romans using any other time reconing of hours. There is not a single reason for scholars to believe or suspect that romans counted hours in any different way. ALL documentation is consistent in that romaans count hours as all other contemporary civilizations.
PLUS:
all time in all the Bible count hours from sunrise
all time in all Gospels and Acts, count hours from sunrise
in all John Gospels, hours are count from sunrise.
even in the case (which is not) that romans had a diferent hours, there is not any reason to say that in John 19:14 ALONE, and in no other verses, hours count differently.
MORE:
if Jesus was at the Counsil by the morning hours
if Jesus was broght firstly to Pilate at dawn (then sent to Herod, and back to Pilate)
how are we again at 6am?