The Religion of Blinding Bluster

[PureX]

In what way could rape be justified or necessary to ensure the future of the species? If it came to the point where that's "justifiable" then the human race has all but died out already.

Your lack of imagination doesn't negate the actual possibility. Perhaps we humans will stop reproducing the 'old fashioned way' in favor of some technological method. And then suddenly the tech doesn't work any more. But now no one wants to return to the 'old way'.

The point is that we don't know that rape will always be immoral. Because we can't know what "always" means.

 

[Jenkins]

Where did you see that "this text was authored by Me, God" quote? Because you interpretation of some vague poetic phrase isn't going to stand as the equivalent. Sorry.

Sorry to have confused you.

Lots of the material in the Old Testament begins with, "The Word of The Lord came to me ... " Or, "This Says The Lord..." Or some equivalent qualifier.

Not sure what you are looking for.

 

[PureX]

In my last post, I wrote: "this text was authored by Me, God". Does this mean I have to accept it as true, now, because it has been written down? And keep in mind that we all know it was written down by a flawed and confused human.

The problem is that we all know that flawed and confused humans wrote the biblical text. So no matter what they wrote, there is no logical reason to think God wrote it. None at all. And remember that they did not write that God wrote it. You are just interpreting some vague poetic phrases in that way. So I can't see any reason whatever to believe you: yet another flawed and confused human.

 

[Rusha]

Even today killing our fellow humans is routinely deemed necessary for the future of humanity. Millions of them. And yet one rape makes humanity not worth saving in your eyes? The rape of a woman that refuses to offer her reproductive self to save the human species?

You have some very strange priorities, friend.

Go back and read my response. I never said “one rape”. I included ALL rapes, MURDERS, and abuse. We (who believe such acts are evil), want to rid the world of those vile predators.

Some have differing ideas of what the penalty should be. That’s fine, as long as the predators are stopped PERMANENTLY from doing more harm.

 

[Right Divider]

Same concept. Those Redeemed through Christ rejoice with this, rather than quibble over language.

Those being corrected like to call the other guy a "quibbler".

Thanks for your wisdom to pursue the Truth of a personal salvation through Jesus.

You're welcome.

 

[Right Divider]

(Thanks for the web site)

You're welcome. They have many great resources.

 

[Jenkins]

Those being corrected like to call the other guy a "quibbler".

You're welcome.

Shaving terminology accomplishes nothing.

 

[Right Divider]

The "new creature" must come after the "old" creature...right?

Indeed, just like the new covenant replaces the old covenant.

What happened to the Jewish "old creature"?
What happened to the Gentile "old creature"?

They faded away, just like the old covenant was doing at the time of the writing of the book to the Hebrews.

Heb 8:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(8:13) In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

 

[Jenkins]

In my last post, I wrote: "this text was authored by Me, God". Does this mean I have to accept it as true, now, because it has been written down? And keep in mind that we all know it was written down by a flawed and confused human.

The problem is that we all know that flawed and confused humans wrote the biblical text. So no matter what they wrote, there is no logical reason to think God wrote it. None at all. And remember that they did not write that God wrote it. You are just interpreting some vague poetic phrases in that way. So I can't see any reason whatever to believe you: yet another flawed and confused human.

Only those who belong to God are able to hear His voice and comprehend His Written Word.

 

[Right Divider]

Shaving terminology accomplishes nothing.

Deafness also accomplishes nothing.

 

[PureX]

Go back and read my response. I never said “one rape”. I included ALL rapes, MURDERS, and abuse. We (who believe such acts are evil), want to rid the world of those vile predators.

Yes, but "we" are not gods. And we don't know why God has not rid the world of these acts. We cannot see what God sees, or know what God knows. And yet some of us seem to want to presume that they do know, and then use that presumption as justification for forcing everyone else to comply. When, if God wanted us to be forced to comply, God would be quite capable of doing so, Himself. Don't you think?

We're never going to rid humanity of this kind of inhumane behavior by force because the force, itself, is inhumane. We can only rid ourselves of this behavior by choosing to reject it. By choosing the path of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity, instead. In the end, it all comes down to this choice.

Some have differing ideas of what the penalty should be. That’s fine, as long as the predators are stopped PERMANENTLY from doing more harm.

That is only possible by our choosing it. It s not possible by the force of law or by the demands of religion.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, but "we" are not gods.

No, we are not.

And we don't know why God has not rid the world of these acts.

God is presently offering grace to the world. There will come a time when God judges all of the acts of this world.

We cannot see what God sees, or know what God knows.

God tells us many things in His Word. All that we need to know.

And yet some of us seem to want to presume that they do know, and then use that presumption as justification for forcing everyone else to comply.

Do you have an example?

When, if God wanted us to be forced to comply, God would be quite capable of doing so, Himself. Don't you think?

Yes, but that's not the way that God works. Ask me how I know.

We're never going to rid humanity of this kind of inhumane behavior by force because the force, itself, is inhumane.

But murderers should be put to death. That is called a just punishment.

We can only rid ourselves of this behavior by choosing to reject it. By choosing the path of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity, instead. In the end, it all comes down to this choice.

And yet so many choose the bad.

That is only possible by our choosing it. It s not possible by the force of law or by the demands of religion.

That is true to a certain extent.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Your lack of imagination doesn't negate the actual possibility. Perhaps we humans will stop reproducing the 'old fashioned way' in favor of some technological method. And then suddenly the tech doesn't work any more. But now no one wants to return to the 'old way'.

The point is that we don't know that rape will always be immoral. Because we can't know what "always" means.

My imagination is just fine thanks Pure but thanks for the thinly veiled insult anyway. Why would people want to abandon having loving and fulfilling relationships where sex is mutual in favour of some non defined "technological method"? Like what exactly? This is as vague as anything and even if this supposedly wonderful tech breaks down, how in any way would that justify rape being moral? You say that after it breaks down that nobody wants to return to the old way. Really? What about the victims of rape, you think they'd be happy? Ever seen the effects that rape can have on a person Pure? I have and it sure ain't pretty.

Your "point" is redundant. If society ever got to the stage where violating people against their will is regarded as moral then the human race would deserve to go extinct.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, but "we" are not gods.

No one here has claimed to be a god.

And we don't know why God has not rid the world of these acts.

You might not, but that's just because your position is founded on not being able to know anything at all. (Yet somehow you're able to know some things?)

We Christians, on the other hand, at least those of us here on TOL, know that the reason God hasn't simply just exterminated all the wicked people (including yourself, PureX) yet is that love cannot be forced, and some love is worth enduring much hate.

We cannot see what God sees, or know what God knows.

We can peek into the mind of God by reading His word.

And yet some of us seem to want to presume that they do know, and then use that presumption as justification for forcing everyone else to comply.

As RD asked, do you have a specific example of this?

When, if God wanted us to be forced to comply, God would be quite capable of doing so, Himself. Don't you think?

Therefore.... something...

We're never going to rid humanity of this kind of inhumane behavior by force because the force, itself, is inhumane.

The death penalty for convicted homosexuals, murderers, adulterers, kidnappers, and those who bear false witness in cases of capital crimes is humane.

Corporal punishment for convicted criminals who's crimes resulted in injuries, or for acting in contempt of court, is humane.

Restitution and, if necessary, indentured servitude for crimes where the criminal cannot immediately pay the required restitution, paid by the convicted thief is humane.

The above three forms of punishments are humane, and WILL (God guarantees it) deter other would-be criminals from committing those crimes.

It won't prevent ALL crime, but enforcing those punishments will cause a drastic reduction in overall crime.

On the other hand, locking criminals up in prisons like animals is not humane, it's treating them like animals (but that's what you get when you teach people that they were evolved from animals...).

We can only rid ourselves of this behavior by choosing to reject it.

You can reject criminal behavior all you like, it doesn't change the fact that punishment is necessary for criminals who are convicted of their crimes.

By choosing the path of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity, instead.

This is the sort of crime that happens when you forgive criminals rather than punishing them swiftly and painfully:

Murder suspect in Columbus was out on bail— for murder charges

Avonte Sanford of Columbus, Ohio was charged with fatally shooting 19 year old Antohn Saunders in December 2021. He was arrested and released on bond.

thepostmillennial.com

The murderer was let out on bail, and then murdered again.

That's "love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity" for the criminal.

The "love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity" should be directed at the victims of crime, not the criminals, by punishing the criminals and protecting the victims and potential victims.

In the end, it all comes down to this choice.

Whether justice is enforced? Yes.

That is only possible by our choosing it. It s not possible by the force of law or by the demands of religion.

Religion doesn't have the authority for punishing criminals.

Governments do.

 

[PureX]

My imagination is just fine thanks Pure but thanks for the thinly veiled insult anyway. Why would people want to abandon having loving and fulfilling relationships where sex is mutual in favour of some non defined "technological method"? Like what exactly? This is as vague as anything and even if this supposedly wonderful tech breaks down, how in any way would that justify rape being moral? You say that after it breaks down that nobody wants to return to the old way. Really? What about the victims of rape, you think they'd be happy? Ever seen the effects that rape can have on a person Pure? I have and it sure ain't pretty.

I was not intending to insult. I was hoping to stop this litany of silly questions. As I have already stated several times, now, the point is that WE DON'T KNOW how the future will play out. So we don't know what will be considered "a moral imperative" in the future. What we do know is that moral imperatives were quite different in the past from what they are now. And that they will be likely to continue changing in the future. How they will change is impossible to say, but THAT they will change is an easy prediction.

Your "point" is redundant. If society ever got to the stage where violating people against their will is regarded as moral then the human race would deserve to go extinct.

Some people already think violating other people sexually is an acceptable moral behavior. In fact, it remains a common practice in warfare among a number of nations of the world to kill the enemy males, and rape the enemy females, because the children of those rapes will be of "mixed" heritage, helping to disuade them from seeking vengeance when they become the next generation of adults.

You keep blindly insisting that your personal moral imperatives are absolute and unquestionable, and yet the rest of the world manages to continually prove that to be untrue.

 

[Skeeter]

Go back and read my response. I never said “one rape”. I included ALL rapes, MURDERS, and abuse. We (who believe such acts are evil), want to rid the world of those vile predators.

Some have differing ideas of what the penalty should be. That’s fine, as long as the predators are stopped PERMANENTLY from doing more harm.

I think the difficulty here is the highly charged terminology. Murder, rape, and abuse is always wrong, but killing a human, commandeering reproductive biology, and hurting people is usually wrong, but conceivably could be necessary for the greater good under highly improbable conditions.

 

[PureX]

Religion doesn't have the authority for punishing criminals.

Punishment for sin is God's purview. Not religion's, and not government's, and not yours (or mine).

Governments do.

Government's job is to protect us from each other, not punish us for "wrong-doing". If in the course of administering that protection, it has to take a human life, then so be it. But it's not about "punishment". It's about protection. We are all making a grave error in thinking that it's the government's place to determine morality and administer punishment. It's not. That's God's place. Governments place is to protect is from each other, and to do so as equitably as possible.

 

[PureX]

I think the difficulty here is the highly charged terminology. Murder, rape, and abuse is always wrong, but killing a human, commandeering reproductive biology, and hurting people is usually wrong, but conceivably could be necessary for the greater good under highly improbable conditions.

Yes, and my point is that it is the greater good that determines what is "right and wrong" is a world where moral imperatives are not absolute. That is in the world we are living in.

 

[Right Divider]

Punishment for sin is God's purview. Not religion's, and not government's, and not yours (or mine).

The death penalty for murderers is "God's idea".

Government's job is to protect us from each other, not punish us for "wrong-doing".

Where do you get these silly ideas?

If in the course of administering that protection, it has to take a human life, then so be it.

Well ... there you go.

But it's not about "punishment".

Of course it is, at least in the case of the death penalty.

It's about protection.

Did you know that there's a good way to project people in our society? It's the death penalty for murderers. If you don't call that "punishment"... well that's on you.

We are all making a grave error in thinking that it's the government's place to determine morality and administer punishment. It's not. That's God's place.

God has given government just that responsibility.

Gen 9:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(9:6) Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Governments place is to protect is from each other, and to do so as equitably as possible.

Among other God given duties.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Punishment for sin is God's purview.

I'm not talking about sin. I'm talking about crime.

Government's job is to protect us from each other,

The best way to do that is by punishing criminals swiftly and painfully.

Ergo, death penalty, corporal punishment, and restitution.

Not prison.

not punish us for "wrong-doing."

"Punishment" is the meting out of justice.

It is literally the application of the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

So if you steal $5 out of someone's wallet and pocket it, upon conviction of that crime (because theft is a crime), you should be forced to not only return what was stolen, but also have $5 taken from you and given to the one you stole from.

Likewise, if in the process of committing that theft, you chop someone's hand off, not only should you be forced to pay $10, you also should have your own hand chopped off, hand for hand.

Furthermore, if as a result of you chopping that man's hand off, the man dies, then you have committed murder, and upon conviction, you should be put to death, life for life.

If in the course of administering that protection, it has to take a human life, then so be it.

You're not very consistent, are you?

But it's not about "punishment". It's about protection.

It's about both, especially when the best way to protect the innocent is to punish the guilty.

We are all making a grave error in thinking that it's the government's place to determine morality and administer punishment. It's not.

The government does not determine morality, God does. He clearly laid out morality in His word.

And yes, it IS the government's place to administer punishment. God says so:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. - Romans 13:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-5&version=NKJV

That's God's place.

God will surely balance the scales, so to speak, but in the meantime, He demands that justice be applied by governments.

Governments place is to protect is from each other, and to do so as equitably as possible.

Supra.