The Problem With Prayer

[Lon]

And there we have it. You've simply decided to be apologetic and make excuses without any substantive reason to do so.

Incorrect. Nice try, but I gave you me, when I was you. No longer true. You don't care. I did. Simple as that.

This is the problem with the oppressive doctrine. It requires you to compartmentalise the difficult issues in the Bible and ignore them, make excuses for them, sweep them under the carpet.

Yes, but then no. There is no rug. It is all out in the open. Your summarizations of glib are showing.

If you believe Putin is a tyrant for using poison gas on innicent children, then you should be consistent and label your god in the same way for killing innocent children and babies. The ideology is simply untennable.

Based on YOUR value system. I'm calling it into question.

And note that this isn't a knee-jerk at all.

You are indeed hasty, have been, continue to be. There are any plethora of examples in your posts on TOL. It is evidence against you. You are hasty.

This is a fair and objective criticism of the Christian ideology and assessment of the stories that the Bible provides (which present God as a a wrathful killer of women, chldren and babies).

This is a mantra. Do you realize how many times you've repeated this all over TOL?

You're living a lie.

You are. Your shallow thought process and easy dismissals are all over TOL. Everybody who has read you knows this and will concur it with me. You are this shallow.

You're decieiving yourself by failing to objectively reconcile properly and honestly the truly awful nature of God as described in the OT.

Good, you see it. Label it injuriously, but grasp a little. Finally.

You're also refusing to accept that the Bible says that God is unchanging and that if he does indeed exist at all, he must still be that wrathful killer of women, children and babies.

You didn't get teaching in Christianity. They never taught you to understand 'what is different.'

If you're prepared to worship such an entity, what does that make you?

Thoughtful, for one

 

[Sherman]

The OP can be likened to a flake of snow that has a problem with the sun... He's no match for the Mighty Creator who created even him.

 

[marke]

Then by that statement you must believe or accept that God permitted Jimmy Savile to sexually abuse lots of innocent young and helpless children.

Likewise he allows numerous other wicked paedophiles to abuse thousands of children worldwide

How do you sit with that?

God does not show Himself by intervening to stop sins in the world, else He would have to essentially wipe out the entire race to stop sins from being committed.

 

[Idolater]

God does not show Himself by intervening to stop sins in the world, else He would have to essentially wipe out the entire race to stop sins from being committed.

Which He did once, with the Flood, and He promised to not do it again.

With water anyway. He'll burn it all down with fire one day, but He's not going to wash it all away with water again, He promised, and the rainbow in the sky is the reminder of that promise.

 

[Derf]

I'm not saying He CANNOT count the hairs, I'm saying He DOES NOT, but if He so chose to, He could.

I don't know that we can actually know whether you are right or not in saying "He does not." Maybe He does choose to, and thus, when Jesus said "the hairs are numbered", it would appear that He would be either lying or mistaken if God had not, at least once in recent history before Jesus made the statement, actually numbered them for all of those in attendance.
[Mat 10:30 KJV] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
[Luk 12:7 KJV] But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

There's no reason at all to think that God keeps a running tally of the number of hairs on every person's head.

Yes, Jesus saying that the hairs "are" numbered is a very good reason to think God was keeping a running tally. Else it would seem He merely counted the hairs just before Jesus made that statement, just so the statement would be true, and thus the concept provides no comfort whatsoever. If God only numbers our hairs for an instant during a speech, with no thought or care at other times for the person whose hairs He is numbering, then He doesn't really care for us as much as for sparrows.

As you said above in Post #32, God numbers them.

Yes.

That's different than having a spreadsheet of all humans and constantly updating that list every time they grow a new hair or lose one!

I don't know about a spreadsheet, or even all humans, since the listeners at the time would have been a select group. But again, if the point of the message was to comfort the hearers, and the comfort was only applicable to a short time frame, there's really no comfort at all.

Looking at the passages, Matthew's was directed at the 12 apostles, and Luke's was addressed to "my friends". So the number of heads were limited. And perhaps the timeframe wasn't unlimited, either. They were being sent out among those who might "kill the body". So it could be that just for this particular time, their hairs had been numbered, in order to determine whether they were harmed by some city or other. But I don't see why it might not apply every time the apostles were sent out, including by the Great Commission, which seems to have been a permanent sending.

 

[Lon]

I don't know that we can actually know whether you are right or not in saying "He does not." Maybe He does choose to, and thus, when Jesus said "the hairs are numbered", it would appear that He would be either lying or mistaken if God had not, at least once in recent history before Jesus made the statement, actually numbered them for all of those in attendance.
[Mat 10:30 KJV] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
[Luk 12:7 KJV] But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Yes, Jesus saying that the hairs "are" numbered is a very good reason to think God was keeping a running tally. Else it would seem He merely counted the hairs just before Jesus made that statement, just so the statement would be true, and thus the concept provides no comfort whatsoever. If God only numbers our hairs for an instant during a speech, with no thought or care at other times for the person whose hairs He is numbering, then He doesn't really care for us as much as for sparrows.

Or sustaining every one. No counting per say, just a knowledge base much grander than our own exponentially. Open Theists are fond of saying 'all things knowable.' It has to mean # of hairs. That's knowable.

Yes.

I don't know about a spreadsheet, or even all humans, since the listeners at the time would have been a select group. But again, if the point of the message was to comfort the hearers, and the comfort was only applicable to a short time frame, there's really no comfort at all.

No need to # hairs, but it a speculation in keeping with limitations set. I don't have to and do not at all question He knows how many atoms you have at any given moment either Colossians 1:17 John 15:5 etc.

Looking at the passages, Matthew's was directed at the 12 apostles, and Luke's was addressed to "my friends". So the number of heads were limited.

Doesn't have to be, even if in Open Theism "He knows things knowable." # of hairs on billions is knowable.

And perhaps the timeframe wasn't unlimited, either. They were being sent out among those who might "kill the body". So it could be that just for this particular time, their hairs had been numbered, in order to determine whether they were harmed by some city or other. But I don't see why it might not apply every time the apostles were sent out, including by the Great Commission, which seems to have been a permanent sending.

Hair? Heartbeats perhaps...

 

[Derf]

Or sustaining every one. No counting per say, just a knowledge base much grander than our own exponentially.

If so, then Jesus misspoke, since he spoke of counting.

Open Theists are fond of saying 'all things knowable.' It has to mean # of hairs. That's knowable.

Agreed. Several here talk about the things that God wants to know or not. I'm not completely on board with the idea, but I can understand why they go that direction.

No need to # hairs, but it a speculation in keeping with limitations set.

There is a need, if justice is in mind. Like when one might say, "If you harm one hair on my son's head...".

I don't have to and do not at all question He knows how many atoms you have at any given moment either Colossians 1:17 John 15:5 etc.

Doesn't have to be, even if in Open Theism "He knows things knowable." # of hairs on billions is knowable.

Hair? Heartbeats perhaps...

Heartbeats past, or future?

 

[Lon]

If so, then Jesus misspoke, since he spoke of counting.

Acts 17:24-28 ESV​

The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

Let us see: Luke 12:7 Luke 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

While I'm not too concerned about 'counting' it is but one way to know numbers.

Agreed. Several here talk about the things that God wants to know or not. I'm not completely on board with the idea, but I can understand why they go that direction.

There is a need, if justice is in mind. Like when one might say, "If you harm one hair on my son's head...".

True, but we are talking about incidental knowledge vs having to count in this chat section: Obviously I am in the 'already knows' camp.

Heartbeats past, or future?

At least past and present, no? Even in the counting camp, such is all knowable.