The Problem With Prayer

Lon

Well-known member
I don't agree with everything the woman being interviewed says, but I think she gives a good answer regarding the reason God doesn't intervene:

Agree. The Wheat/Tares analogy is where my mind went back: Matthew 13:28 ...He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn. ’
 

rstrats

Active member
Using the cancer analogy: I don't believe anybody is praying that God will take somebody with Cancer. In general, having the heart of God, I'd reckon those prayers are very much unified and in accord. T God is sovereign, always makes the best choices. Romans 8:28
I don't see what your post has to do with the comment that you quoted.
 
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marke

Well-known member
There's a fundamental problem with the idea of praying for things and the concept of the Omnipotent God portrayed by mainstream religions.

Let me ask those who believe in this particular God, do you truly believe that:

1. Nothing happens on Earth except that God directly causes it or allows it to happen?

2. God's will is absolute and can not be changed or obstructed?


Think this through most carefully. Do you often say The Lord's Prayer?

"Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed by thy name
Thy Kingdom come, Thy WILL BE DONE
On Earth, as it is in Heaven"



We have to face up to what this means. Is God in charge of everything or isn't he?

If you believe he is, then YOU MUST ACCEPT everything that happens because IT WAS GOD'S WILL that it happened. He either directly caused it to happen or he simply allowed it to happen. Either way it's his will that it happened.

As we stand today, this "God" has allowed millions to die from Covid and/or the various medical interventions. This "God" is also allowing all the current deaths and suffering in the various wars (Israel, Palestine, Ukraine etc).

Either you believe God is in control or you don't.

If you do, then praying and asking for things like Aunt Sally to be healed of Cancer, is surely going against God's will is it not?

God either directly caused the cancer or allowed it to happen. Either way God wanted Aunt Sally to have Cancer. It's his will.

It would be pretty sick of "God" to give people Cancer just to see if people would subsequently pray to him for their healing. I mean that would really be a sick thing to do and certainly not the behaviour of a benevolent being. That's not the nature of God that religion teaches or presents.

So something is very off with the idea of praying.

What it boils down to is this.

If you believe the defacto concept of God peddled by the Churches (i.e Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient etc) then YOU HAVE to accept the WILL OF GOD and thus everything happening around you.

Thus the ONLY prayer one can realistically make is along these lines:

"Dear God, help me to understand your will on Earth and accept it for what it is and help me understand my part in it"

No point praying for Aunt Sally to be healed. She's only ill in the first place by Gods permission and/or action. Praying for healing would in fact be acting against God's will. You'd be praying for God to do something different to what he willed and the Bible tells us that God's will is absolute and unobstructable.

I know this will challenge many but in the end, to wonder is to begin to understand . . . . . . Jose Ortega
God instructs Christians to pray for many reasons, no doubt. One reason may be unearthed in the Book of Daniel, chapter 10, where we see Daniel praying ceaselessly while, unbeknownst to him, war was going on in the spiritual world affecting the answer to his prayer. The passafe suggests an unfolding of events in time that are quite possibly affected by prayer and which results are quite likely not dictated or determined in advance by God.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I don't see what your post has to do with the comment that you quoted.
He was saying the problem of prayer was thousands of opposing prayers. My point: Nobody prays for cancer to take someone, thus all/most prayer is in accord. I believe his point was that God hears opposing prayers and I was saying that it seems a faulty premise. Thanks for asking.
 

SwordOfTruth

Active member
Banned

Then by that statement you must believe or accept that God permitted Jimmy Savile to sexually abuse lots of innocent young and helpless children.

Likewise he allows numerous other wicked paedophiles to abuse thousands of children worldwide

How do you sit with that?
 

rstrats

Active member
He was saying the problem of prayer was thousands of opposing prayers. My point: Nobody prays for cancer to take someone, thus all/most prayer is in accord. I believe his point was that God hears opposing prayers and I was saying that it seems a faulty premise. Thanks for asking.
I still don't see why you posted my comment.
 

SwordOfTruth

Active member
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I still don't see why you posted my comment.

You made a post essentially questioning how God could deal with or reconcile billions of prayers coming in 24/7 saying "I always wonder how they are all kept separate in order to make the decisions for any actions to be taken with regard to each one of them."

Lon made the point that in fact most of those prayers will all be in harmony with each other because by and large Christians are all singing from the same hymn sheet and they will be praying for the same outcomes. In this respect all those prayers coming in aren't really that separate, they are many prayers all broadly speaking asking for the same things.

None of that however addresses the points made in the OP which is that God's will must be done not man's will and thus if God controls everything and nothing happens except that he specifically allows it to happen, then most prayers are in fact opposing God's will as the majority of people pray for "things" and "outcomes" that are in opposition to what they see happening around them. For example if a family member is dying of illness they will be praying for that illness to be taken away when in reality they should be accepting that God specifically allowed that family member to have that terminal illness in the first place. That was His will. This praying for the illness to be removed is praying against God's will.

It's a massive dilemma that most Christians aren't thinking about rationally because they're too tied up in their comfy cocoon of religious indoctrination. Once you allow yourself to believe that God controls everything and that HE PERMITS everything to happen (meaning he has the power to stop or prevent any thing from happening) then you have to equally accept that God is permitting peadophiles to sexually abuse innocent children, that God is permitting wicked people to conduct genocide around the world, or the sex trafficking of women from young children to adults and so on. Our food supplies are now under attack by greedy globalist elites, this is being permitted by God. Our human health is being destroyed on multiple fronts and God is permitting this also. At what point do you hold a being accountable for their actions or indeed lack of action?
 
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Nick M

Born that men no longer die
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Then by that statement you must believe or accept that God permitted Jimmy Savile to sexually abuse lots of innocent young and helpless children.
Nope. All you had to do was say you don't understand free will. First, you need to find a new place to attempt your "gotcha" questions. Perhaps you have already noticed.

4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.
 

Nick M

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That "god" was a despotic jealous violent entity guilty of all manner of horrific actions including:

- genocide
- murder of women and children
- murder of babies
- murder of as yet unborn babies
- ethnic cleansing

and much more

In Christian terms, man is commanded "Thou shalt not kill" whilst the entity they worship kills with abject abandonment including women, children, babies as per above. As I said elsewhere, you might just as well worship Hitler. "Do as I say not as I do" are the trademark tennets of tyrants and dictators.

Likewise he allows numerous other wicked paedophiles to abuse thousands of children worldwide
All to easy....

vader-darth.gif
 
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Lon

Well-known member
I still don't see why you posted my comment.
Let me retrack a bit:
There are probably at least a few hundred prayers being said around the globe at any given moment.
Likely hundreds of thousands.
I always wonder how they are all kept separate in order to make the decisions for any actions to be taken with regard to each one of them.
They? God? He knows the # of hairs on 8 billion heads. A few words in prayer aren't too heard. I assumed you meant "God."
And of course, they just keep coming non-stop 24/7.
And our hairs fall out 24 seven as well, yet He knows how many you and I and 8 billion people have. Perhaps I'm with you: I'm not sure supercomputers could keep track of the number of hairs on 8 billion peoples head.
I don't see what your post has to do with the comment that you quoted.
I asked a few clarifying questions. Hopefully it all comes out in the wash.
 

Derf

Well-known member
And our hairs fall out 24 seven as well, yet He knows how many you and I and 8 billion people have.
By the way, Lon, it doesn't say that God "knows" the number, but that He "numbers" them, or "counts" in a few translations. He is active in the knowing. It isn't something He always knew from before the foundation of the world, how many hairs you and I would have at any particular time.
 

rstrats

Active member
By the way, Lon, it doesn't say that God "knows" the number, but that He "numbers" them, or "counts" in a few translations. He is active in the knowing. It isn't something He always knew from before the foundation of the world, how many hairs you and I would have at any particular time.
How do you think He does that with every person on the globe while at the same time processing the large volume of prayers coming to Him every moment at the same time?
 

JudgeRightly

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How do you think He does that with every person on the globe while at the same time processing the large volume of prayers coming to Him every moment at the same time?

I daresay God isn't actively keeping track of how many hairs every human being has on his or her head. To think He is, is inane.
 

Derf

Well-known member
How do you think He does that with every person on the globe while at the same time processing the large volume of prayers coming to Him every moment at the same time?
I can barely begin to guess. Perhaps He assigns such mundane tasks as hair numbering to angels, who report to Him on occasion. Nobody (except @Lon) said it was a constant knowledge thing.
I daresay God isn't actively keeping track of how many hairs every human being has on his or her head. To think He is, is inane.
It is only inane if we say Jesus was merely exaggerating for effect. He did that sometimes, like when He said we should hate father and mother, or perhaps when He said to pluck out an eye that offends. But when He talked of God's power or knowledge or capability, I don't see why an exaggeration would be helpful, do you?
 
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JudgeRightly

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It is only inane if we say Jesus was merely exaggerating for effect. He did that sometimes, like when He said we should hate father and mother, or perhaps when He said to pluck out an eye that offends. But when He talked of God's power or knowledge or capability, I don't see why an exaggeration would be helpful, do you?

I'm not saying He CANNOT count the hairs, I'm saying He DOES NOT, but if He so chose to, He could.

There's no reason at all to think that God keeps a running tally of the number of hairs on every person's head.

As you said above in Post #32, God numbers them.

That's different than having a spreadsheet of all humans and constantly updating that list every time they grow a new hair or lose one!
 

Lon

Well-known member
I'm not saying He CANNOT count the hairs, I'm saying He DOES NOT, but if He so chose to, He could.

There's no reason at all to think that God keeps a running tally of the number of hairs on every person's head.

As you said above in Post #32, God numbers them.

That's different than having a spreadsheet of all humans and constantly updating that list every time they grow a new hair or lose one!
A computer doesn't mind. Similarly God who sustains everything isn't counting. It is just in His knowledge and docket. Even an Open Theist says "everything knowable." Such needs consistency. I know how many coats I own: Sure it is mundane and inane. I'm not bragging about it, I just do.

God wasn't bragging that He knows the # of your hairs, Jesus was saying He cares that much about you. I don't even know how many coats my wife own! God loves us. He cares about minute details involving our lives because He loves us that much.
 
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Lon

Well-known member
You made a post essentially questioning how God could deal with or reconcile billions of prayers coming in 24/7 saying "I always wonder how they are all kept separate in order to make the decisions for any actions to be taken with regard to each one of them."

Lon made the point that in fact most of those prayers will all be in harmony with each other because by and large Christians are all singing from the same hymn sheet and they will be praying for the same outcomes. In this respect all those prayers coming in aren't really that separate, they are many prayers all broadly speaking asking for the same things.
Yep
None of that however addresses the points made in the OP which is that God's will must be done not man's will and thus if God controls everything and nothing happens except that he specifically allows it to happen, then most prayers are in fact opposing God's will as the majority of people pray for "things" and "outcomes" that are in opposition to what they see happening around them. For example if a family member is dying of illness they will be praying for that illness to be taken away when in reality they should be accepting that God specifically allowed that family member to have that terminal illness in the first place. That was His will. This praying for the illness to be removed is praying against God's will.
It is a difference between decretive and prescriptive. You have a fatalist view but relationship (we aren't isolated beings) causes interaction (prescriptive).
It's a massive dilemma that most Christians aren't thinking about rationally because they're too tied up in their comfy cocoon of religious indoctrination.
You genuinely assume too much. Your egocentric lens and thus 'truth' is biased and forged about as hard as steel. It'll go unheeded likely, but listen more. Assert less. You may imagine you've got it all figured out but you've already told me you don't. Entertain you aren't correct here?
Once you allow yourself to believe that God controls everything and that HE PERMITS everything to happen (meaning he has the power to stop or prevent any thing from happening) then you have to equally accept that God is permitting peadophiles to sexually abuse innocent children, that God is permitting wicked people to conduct genocide around the world, or the sex trafficking of women from young children to adults and so on.
All theologians wrestle with this. It isn't novel. Did you go to any of them prior to your issue here? "Out" isn't the only viable answer, even if it seems to work in your own mind. I have an ability to change these statistics slightly. All of us together would have an incredible impact. God can, as you say, step in, but His desire isn't to burn the whole earth. God has every right to stop atrocity and has done so a good many times. You call Him despot for it, but think! If you were God, you'd do what you could. Ultimately Jesus was His answer. I've no idea why it took so long, I'm not God and I don't second-guess Him (any longer). He's proven over and over again that He doesn't desire any of this. The analogy of the wheat and tares is all about not losing even one. Once you know somebody, you can listen to them explain their actions. If that being is only good, only light, only loving, you (like me) might begin to cut slack and simply listen. You aren't there yet, you walked away before any reasonable explanation could be given.
Our food supplies are now under attack by greedy globalist elites, this is being permitted by God. Our human health is being destroyed on multiple fronts and God is permitting this also. At what point do you hold a being accountable for their actions or indeed lack of action?
You assume, because of stories you don't understand, that God doesn't care, is a tyrant. I looked at the same exact passages but wrestled and wrestled hard. I started with Jesus. I worked backwards. Do I get all of it? No, but I've found Him trustworthy. Sometimes the answer from my parents was "Because I said so." That was the end of the story and they rightly played to their authority. While I didn't like it, it was true: They made decisions as best as they could and by appointment had the right to say "none of your business." God didn't explain everything in scripture. He did say the people were doing attestable things, not your run of the mill bad things, but things like you add here in scripture. At that time sins were hard to break to the third and fourth generation. Whatever was happening in the O.T. is recorded in other histories (I looked). Those things were detestable, I'd likely have burned all of Rome if I were God. Sodom and Gomorrah was very much the same "What if there are ten righteous?" If you make an assumption that statistically it isn't possible for whole peoples to be destroyed as wicked, down to women and their children, you've imported our contemporary values by mistake. We all have knee-jerk reactions. We saw Putin gas poison children and cried 'foul.' We should, but if that figure is portrayed as Holy, Loving, not willing that any should perish, such should inform our opinions. "I might have missed something" should be one of our first thoughts. You haven't entertained or thought it through, nor given benefit of doubt. I asked you to 'think.' I'm asking again.
 

SwordOfTruth

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All theologians wrestle with this. It isn't novel. Did you go to any of them prior to your issue here? "Out" isn't the only viable answer, even if it seems to work in your own mind. I have an ability to change these statistics slightly. All of us together would have an incredible impact. God can, as you say, step in, but His desire isn't to burn the whole earth. God has every right to stop atrocity and has done so a good many times. You call Him despot for it, but think! If you were God, you'd do what you could. Ultimately Jesus was His answer. I've no idea why it took so long, I'm not God and I don't second-guess Him (any longer). He's proven over and over again that He doesn't desire any of this. The analogy of the wheat and tares is all about not losing even one. Once you know somebody, you can listen to them explain their actions. If that being is only good, only light, only loving, you (like me) might begin to cut slack and simply listen. You aren't there yet, you walked away before any reasonable explanation could be given.
This is just platitudes and waffle Lon. You've made no attempt to deal with the appalling fact that your Bible describes the character God as a wilful killer of innocent women, children, babies and as yet unborn babies. Like so many Christians across the world you can't bring yourself to deal with this. You're ignoring it.


You assume, because of stories you don't understand, that God doesn't care, is a tyrant. I looked at the same exact passages but wrestled and wrestled hard. I started with Jesus. I worked backwards. Do I get all of it? No
So you appreciate that the stories relate God to be an absolute tyrant and you confess that you don't get it, which of course is right because such actions are inexcusable. So what is the next step?

It's either to make up some ridiculous lame excuse to apologise for that barbaric behaviour, or it's to try and totally ignore it and sweep it under the carpet. Which way will you go . . . . let's see . . .

but I've found Him trustworthy.

God didn't explain everything in scripture.

Those things were detestable, I'd likely have burned all of Rome if I were God.

Sodom and Gomorrah was very much the same "What if there are ten righteous?" If you make an assumption that statistically it isn't possible for whole peoples to be destroyed as wicked, down to women and their children, you've imported our contemporary values by mistake. We all have knee-jerk reactions. We saw Putin gas poison children and cried 'foul.' We should, but if that figure is portrayed as Holy, Loving, not willing that any should perish, such should inform our opinions. "I might have missed something" should be one of our first thoughts.

And there we have it. You've simply decided to be apologetic and make excuses without any substantive reason to do so. This is the problem with the oppressive doctrine. It requires you to compartmentalise the difficult issues in the Bible and ignore them, make excuses for them, sweep them under the carpet. If you believe Putin is a tyrant for using poison gas on innicent children, then you should be consistent and label your god in the same way for killing innocent children and babies. The ideology is simply untennable.
And note that this isn't a knee-jerk at all. This is a fair and objective criticism of the Christian ideology and assessment of the stories that the Bible provides (which present God as a a wrathful killer of women, chldren and babies).

You're living a lie. You're decieiving yourself by failing to objectively reconcile properly and honestly the truly awful nature of God as described in the OT. You're also refusing to accept that the Bible says that God is unchanging and that if he does indeed exist at all, he must still be that wrathful killer of women, children and babies.

If you're prepared to worship such an entity, what does that make you?
 

Derf

Well-known member
This is just platitudes and waffle Lon. You've made no attempt to deal with the appalling fact that your Bible describes the character God as a wilful killer of innocent women, children, babies and as yet unborn babies.
Is that wrong for a creator to destroy some parts of His creation? If so, how did you determine that such is wrong?
Like so many Christians across the world you can't bring yourself to deal with this. You're ignoring it.



So you appreciate that the stories relate God to be an absolute tyrant and you confess that you don't get it, which of course is right because such actions are inexcusable.
Does God need an excuse to destroy His creations? Why?
So what is the next step?

It's either to make up some ridiculous lame excuse to apologise for that barbaric behaviour, or it's to try and totally ignore it and sweep it under the carpet. Which way will you go . . . . let's see . . .









And there we have it. You've simply decided to be apologetic and make excuses without any substantive reason to do so. This is the problem with the oppressive doctrine. It requires you to compartmentalise the difficult issues in the Bible and ignore them, make excuses for them, sweep them under the carpet. If you believe Putin is a tyrant for using poison gas on innicent children, then you should be consistent and label your god in the same way for killing innocent children and babies.
Why? Are you saying Putin has the same position with respect to those children that God has to all people?
The ideology is simply untennable.
And note that this isn't a knee-jerk at all. This is a fair and objective criticism of the Christian ideology and assessment of the stories that the Bible provides (which present God as a a wrathful killer of women, chldren and babies).
Which doesn't seem to be an accurate assessment.
You're living a lie. You're decieiving yourself by failing to objectively reconcile properly and honestly the truly awful nature of God as described in the OT. You're also refusing to accept that the Bible says that God is unchanging and that if he does indeed exist at all, he must still be that wrathful killer of women, children and babies.
Of course. Have you read Revelation? Does it suggest that women, children, and babies will be spared from His wrath without the testimony of Christ? (And those who have the testimony of Christ will be subject to death and other treatment at the hands of Christ's enemies

If you're prepared to worship such an entity, what does that make you?
What are you suggesting God should do about the atrocities? How do you handle someone who completely and permanently rejects your authority?

But in spite of God's moral obligation, based on His unchanging nature, to destroy those who reject His authority (including their offspring, because they are under the rejecter's authority), God promised to raise all of them from their destruction (death). That mercy is also part of His unchanging nature.
 
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