Aaron the Tall
Member
I went looking for that initial post of yours, but had a hard time finding it. I see an in the Greek - which is given the definition "anyhow." Maybe you could spell out again what condition you are referring to.
The Preterists and Matthew 24:34
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
I went looking for that initial post of yours, but had a hard time finding it. I see an in the Greek - which is given the definition "anyhow." Maybe you could spell out again what condition you are referring to.
Aaron the Tall
Member
This goes back to my point a long ways back, that the angels are weeding all the stumbling blocks out of his kingdom. I believe the Kingdom is referring to the Kingdom of God we have been talking about. You believe this reference of kingdom is simply a general reference to God's rule over the earth - despite the fact that every other mention of the Kingdom in Jesus' teaching ministry refers to his specific Kingdom rule, not a general rule.
With that in mind, I believe the ALL who do evil is limited to the people group who belong to Kingdom rule of God - not just the general rule of God. Those people are the Jews. Israel was God's Kingdom on earth - they were God's plan of manifesting God's rule to the nations - and they were the group set up to be heirs of the Kingdom ruled by Jesus. Just as Jesus said the Kingdom would be taken from the Pharisees (and all unbelieving Jews) - so here in Mt 13, those Pharisees and unbelieving Jews are removed from the Kingdom.
If this judgement was the "world-wide" removal of Jews from their spiritual place of position in the Kingdom - why do you think there would be world-wide visible physical signs accompanied by this judgement. The well known sign that did accompany this judgement was the destruction of the temple and the sack of Jerusalem.
Consider a parallel passage in Matthew 8:11-12. Jesus says that people from all over the world would enter the Kingdom, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Who are these "sons of the kingdom" mentioned here - and wouldn't you say this is the same picture in Mt 13 of evildoers being cast out of the Kingdom and into outer darkness?
The first 6 commentaries I checked says these sons of the kingdom are unbelieving Jews.
Are you aware of the actual signs in the sky that preceded the destruction of Jerusalem?
To clarify, do you believe the great tribulation will be limited to the region of Israel and will be primarily directed at the Jews?
The only explicit similarities are the one's Jesus explicitly makes - that people were going about normal business and then judgement came.
You can deduce similarities with other passages - like you just did - but that isn't an explicit similarity.
Aaron the Tall
Member
Please clarify what the overall narrative is that you are speaking of - and how that narrative should inform my understanding of Jesus' words here.
I don't see your point. How does Jesus' judgment via the Roman Military not jive with my view of Mark 1:15?
Jesus is proclaiming what will happen, not what might happen. If Jesus' hearers repent and believe, they will have access to the coming Kingdom. If they do not repent, they will be subject to the wrath that was about to come (Matt 3:7)
I agree - and I at least have appreciated the interaction. I grow through the push and pull. I have never understood the name calling that goes on in Christian forums.
Aaron the Tall
Member
You must have a problem with Ezekiel 5:9 then “because of all your abominations, I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again.”
This is God speaking of judging Israel at the hands of the Babylonian empire. This happened a long time before the great tribulation.
Aaron the Tall
Member
See Ezekiel 5:9
musterion
Well-known member
Here...
It doesn't matter anymore.
His argument is completely destroyed by Mark 13:30
(Mark 13:30 KJV) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mark 13:30 says the same thing Matt 24:34 does, except Mark 13:30 doesn't have the Greek word "an" in it.
(Mark 13:30 KJV) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
You're wrong.
Here is what Paul said:
(2 Thess 2:3) Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
As we see, Paul knew certain things had to happen first.
Paul continued:
(2 Thess 2:4) He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
So, these things did not happen in Paul's life. Paul knew the Great Rebellion that began in 66AD had to take place before the return of Christ Jesus.
Paul died before 66AD
Here is what Paul said:
(2 Thess 2:3) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Since the Great Rebellion hadn't taken place yet, and the man of sin hadn't been revealed yet, why would think Paul expected the return of the Lord in his day?
That makes no sense steko.
You Dispensationalists need to make up your minds.
Which is it?
David's Tent or a Third Temple in your future earthly kingdom?
Interplanner
Well-known member
Hi, I'm new here. I posted a few things last night, one referring to a post by Tetelestai. It is not here now. Is the only way to contact a supervisor through Outlook?
Interplanner
Well-known member
OK...so they are checked by a supervisor first.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Lord Jesus Himself said what would occur at the end of the age:
"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).
Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world" (kosmos).
Well known preterist author Gary DeMar said the following about the meaning of the Greek word kosmos:
"It's significant that Matthew uses oikoumene only in 24:14, while he uses kosmos, a word that can have a more global meaning, nine times. In fact, we read later in Matthew's gospel: 'Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world [kosmos], what this woman has done shall also be spoken of in memory of her' (26:13). The Greek construction in the two verses is identical except that in 26:13 kosmos is used for 'world.' Matthew chooses oikoumene over kosmos because he wants to emphasize its local geographical fulfillment within the time frame of 'this generation' in contrast to a universal fulfillment not bound by geography or time as is the obvious case in 26:13" (DeMar,Limited Geography and Bibical Interpretation).
There was never a world wide harvest in the first century so the end of the age remains in the future.
Here we see that signs will be seen in the sky AFTER the great tribulation is over:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).
And the following passage describes men reacting to those signs in the sky and being in fear of things which will be coming on a much larger area than Israel, and which will take place after the great tribulation is over:
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene)" (Lk.21:25-26).
There was never a large harvest that happened on a large mass of land after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.
Gary DeMar had this to say about the meaning of the Greek word oikoumene:
"The case can be made that 'oikoumene' is used exclusively for the geographical area generally limited to the Roman empire of the first-century and the territories immediately adjacent which were known and accessible to first-century travelers. When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" [emphasis mine] (Gary DeMar, "The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).
We can also see that there will be a world wide judgment at the end of the age because He compares that with the world wide flood:
"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mt.24:37-39).
That judgment was not limited to just a part of the world but instead to the whole earth. And that is why the Lord Jesus compares His coming to the Noah's flood.
And that is exactly why the Lord Jesus said the following:
"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:34-35).
All the preterists do is to try to change the meaning of the Greek words kosmos and oikoumene to mean Israel.
The trouble with this is the fact that no Greek experts agrees with their definition (and not even their own, Gary DeMar). The other problem is the fact that both of these Greek words apply to events which will happen after the great tribulation is over. History speaks of no such events that happened after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When we look at the following passage we can know that the early Christians understood that the coming of the Lord Jesus to catch up the saints was "imminent":
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming at hand (eggizo). Don't grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!" (James 5:8-9).
The Greek word translated "at hand" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
That is why Paul says that we eagerly wait for the Savior:
"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself" (Phil.3:20-21).
If the rapture could not occur until certain things happened first then no one would be eagerly waithing for His return until those things happened.
No, they post immediately
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you believe that the kingdom mentioned by the Lord Jesus at Matthew 13 is in regard to the kingdom that only those who have been born again can enter?:
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:16,18).
You have some strange ideas, my friend, because it is obvious that these who will be taken out at the harvest are not born again:
"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).
I just cannot throw my reason to the wind and imagine that those who are taken out of the kingdom spoken of at Matthew 13 will be born again. Evidently you can.
First of all, the passage does not say that the "sons of the kingdom" will be cast out of the kingdom spoken of earlier. And obviously the "sons of the kingdom" are unbelievers who were not born again so they were never in the kingdom spoken of at verse eleven.
That is right. And you failed to mention anything about my remarks concerning the events which will happen after the great tribulation is over:
Here we see that signs will be seen in the sky AFTER the great tribulation is over:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).
And the following passage describes men reacting to those signs in the sky and being in fear of things which will be coming on a much larger area than Israel, and which will take place after the great tribulation is over:
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene)" (Lk.21:25-26).
There was never a large harvest that happened on a large mass of land after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.
Gary DeMar had this to say about the meaning of the Greek word oikoumene:
"The case can be made that 'oikoumene' is used exclusively for the geographical area generally limited to the Roman empire of the first-century and the territories immediately adjacent which were known and accessible to first-century travelers. When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" [emphasis mine] (Gary DeMar, "The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).
Certainly there was never a harvest which came on the area which the Christians knew as their world after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.
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