The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
As we see above, Peter spoke of the scoffers in the future tense. Then years later, Jude quoted Peter, to show his audience that Peter's prophecy had come true.

So according to your ideas the following prophecy from the third chapter of Peter's second epistle has already happened:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Pet.3:10).​

Unlike you, I am unable to trick my mind into believing that event has already come and gone!
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
So according to your ideas the following prophecy from the third chapter of Peter's second epistle has already happened:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Pet.3:10).​

Yes, it already happened.

If you think it's literal, is the following literal?

(1 Cor 3:13) their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

Are your works going to be tested with literal fire?

Yet, you think the works in 2 Peter 3:10 will be burned with literal fire.

Unlike you, I am unable to trick my mind into believing that event has already come and gone!

Your mind has already been tricked into following John Nelson Darby.

BTW, I noticed you didn't even attempt to explain how Jude quoted Peter and proved the last days were in the first century.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yet, you think the works in 2 Peter 3:10 will be burned with literal fire.

Whether it is literal fire or not does not really matter since Peter states that the universe will be dissolved:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness" (2 Pet.3:10).​

There is absolutely no reason to suppose that the universe will not be dissolved, since the author of the book of Hebrews says practically the same thing:

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest" (Heb.1:10-11).​

Of course these things have not yet happened but you must somehow spiritualize away what is said in these verses in order to cling to the false teachings invented by the preterists.
 
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Thanks!

Do you think the Mt. 13 harvest took place already? That the "end of the age" in verse 40 was in 70AD?

Yes on Mt 13. Jesus said the harvest field was ripe. Mt 21:33-44 is a parable about Jesus' first coming being in regard to collecting the harvest.

I agree with Mr. T on his assessment of the end of the age.

I would throw in 1 Cor 10:11 where Paul says he was living at the end of the age.

Some here have suggested Paul thought he was living at the end of the age, but he was mistaken.
 

iamaberean

New member
No, but Jude confirms what Peter warned of did take place in the first century.

Peter said scoffers would come in the last days:

(2 Peter 3:3) Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

Years later, Jude said the following:

(Jude 1:17-19) But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

As we see above, Peter spoke of the scoffers in the future tense. Then years later, Jude quoted Peter, to show his audience that Peter's prophecy had come true. Jude speaks in the present tense "these are the people who divide you"

So, Peter said scoffers would come in the last days. Jude quoted Peter to show that the scoffers had come.

This proves that at the time Jude was written (the first century, prior to 70AD), it was the LAST DAYS.

19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Here lies the real reason of division, the people that divided them had not been born again, for they did not have the Spirit (Holy Ghost)! Without the Holy Ghost they could not understand God's word.
 
Its clear that had the lost sheep of the house of Israel repented, they would have had to offer Him as a sacrifice in obedience rather than in the disobedience they had Him crucified under.

Further, they would have then had to reach out to those other sheep not of their fold; the balance of the Twelve Tribes, in Judaea and Samaria, as well as those scattered throughout their then ends of the world.

They would then have had to endure His wrath to come per their Covenant with the LORD, after which, He would have returned to restore again the kingdom to Israel that they might then be His witnesses and Royal Priesthood singing praises unto His name among the Gentiles.

Be honest; did you expect this to be laid out this solved for?

I ask that, only that you consider where you look at things from. For as you yourself implied, you had no answer to this.

Though, feel free to seek what holes in it you might find. I like the challenge of such things for what they force me to have to consider some things through to their logical end, as that will often, either give me greater clarity on other things, or cause me to consider them in light of questions like the ones you posed here.

Thanks, for that; by the way.

There is also the question of what about the Mystery the Apostle was actually talking about, lol

I figured someone had an answer - that doesn't mean I think it reasonable or Scriptural.

So, if they accepted Jesus, they would have had some special ceremony at the temple where the priest would offer up Jesus as a sacrifice on the alter?

If that was the original plan, and not for Jesus to have been hated and crucified, what do you make of prophecies like Psalm 22 where Jesus' crucifixion by evil, hateful men is foretold? Or Isaiah 53 which speaks of Jesus being despised, scourged, and oppressed?

Obviously God knew Jesus would be rejected by Israel and the Kingdom wasn't going to come at that time (according to your view). I can't square that with Mark 1:15 where Jesus says "the time is fulfilled and the Kingdom of God is at hand."

Jesus was saying that what was prophecied about the Kingdom was about to come to pass. But if it was prophesied that Jesus would die by the hands of those that rejected him, and not by a welcoming ceremony - then it doesn't make sense for Jesus to say the Kingdom was about to come.
 

iamaberean

New member
So according to your ideas the following prophecy from the third chapter of Peter's second epistle has already happened:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Pet.3:10).​

Unlike you, I am unable to trick my mind into believing that event has already come and gone!

Heaven and earth refers to the place where God and man meet. The first time it came to pass was when Abraham went to the mount to sacrifice his son. The second time was when Jacob rested on the mount and would wrestle with God. The third time is when the temple was built on the mount and sacrifices were made.

Heaven is the spiritual part and we can not see the things that happened there, but earth is natural and we know that the temple (earth) was destroyed by fire in 70 AD. This is the confirmation that the end of the age for the first covenant was over. We live under the new covenant and we are the temple of God.
 
The kingdom had not yet been set up on the earth so no one was in that kingdom when the Lord Jesus walked the earth.

The problem is that Jesus is making a contrast here: "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables."

He is contrasting his followers with those who are outside the Kingdom. By implication, his followers are in the Kingdom - or at the very least, are in the Kingdom plan. Your response still doesn't answer why Jesus spoke in parables that were designed to not be understood by a majority of the Jews, "lest they return and be forgiven."

If Jesus needed 100% of the Jews to accept him (or at least some undisclosed majority), why would he teach in a way that would result in less than majority acceptance?


"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit" (Mt.21:43).​

The Lord was addressing the chief priests and Pharisees and when the kingdom will be set up on the earth then the Twelve will reign over the nation of Israel:

To clarify, Jesus was saying the Kingdom would be taken from the current Jewish leadership and would be given to the Twelve instead?


Again, the Lord Jesus words in the Olivet Discourse were in answer to the disciples question about what will happen at "the end of the age" (Mt.24:3). And He said that at that time there will be a world wide harvest:

Yes, you've mentioned that to me several times now. I understand what you believe. There are other things I've asked about that I'd rather you answer instead of repeating what you think is the silver bullet in this discussion. I'll at least mention that Paul said the Gospel was bearing fruit in all the world (kosmos) - as you pointed out - but Paul did not mean the whole world. I don't think native Americans were hearing about the faith of the Romans at that time.

I've heard some varying opinions on the question I posed - and I'm interested to hear your take:

What is possible for the Jews to receive the Kingdom during the life of Jesus?

If they received Jesus, what would have happened? Would Jesus still have been crucified? Or be ceremoniously sacrificed on an alter at the temple?

And if Jesus knew they would reject him - as it was prophecied that he would be crucified by those who hated and rejected him - then how could Jesus say the Kingdom was at hand?
 

Right Divider

Body part
Heaven and earth refers to the place where God and man meet. The first time it came to pass was when Abraham went to the mount to sacrifice his son. The second time was when Jacob rested on the mount and would wrestle with God. The third time is when the temple was built on the mount and sacrifices were made.

Heaven is the spiritual part and we can not see the things that happened there, but earth is natural and we know that the temple (earth) was destroyed by fire in 70 AD. This is the confirmation that the end of the age for the first covenant was over. We live under the new covenant and we are the temple of God.
I sure get to read a lot of contrived nonsense where on TOL.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I'll at least mention that Paul said the Gospel was bearing fruit in all the world (kosmos) - as you pointed out - but Paul did not mean the whole world. I don't think native Americans were hearing about the faith of the Romans at that time.

There was never a harvest that even extended to the area which Paul said that the Gospel was bearing fruit. All you want to do is to make the meaning of the Greek word kosmos just mean the land of Israel.

But if that was the meaning the Lord Jesus wanted to place at Matthew 13 He would not have used the word kosmos. But He did. We can also see that signs will be seen in the sky AFTER the great tribulation is over:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mt.24:29).​

And the following passage describes men reacting to those signs in the sky and being in fear of things which will be coming on a much larger area than Israel, and which will take place after the great tribulation is over:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene)" (Lk.21:25-26).​

There was never a large harvest that happened on a large mass of land after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.

Even Gary DeMar, one of the best known preterists, had this to say about the meaning of the Greek word oikoumene:

"The case can be made that 'oikoumene' is used exclusively for the geographical area generally limited to the Roman empire of the first-century and the territories immediately adjacent which were known and accessible to first-century travelers. When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" [emphasis mine] (Gary DeMar, "The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).​

You can try to limit the meaning of both kosmos and oikoumene to Israel but that is not the meaning of either word. Instead, the true meaning of both words sink the preterist ship to the bottom of the sea.

We can also see that there will be a world wide judgment at the end of the age because He compares that with the world wide flood:

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mt.24:37-39).​

That judgment was not limited to just a part of the world but instead to the whole earth. And that is why the Lord Jesus compares His coming to the Noah's flood.

And that is exactly why the Lord Jesus said the following:

"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:34-35).​

To clarify, Jesus was saying the Kingdom would be taken from the current Jewish leadership and would be given to the Twelve instead?

He said that the traditional leadership within Israel would be changed. And it will be changed when the Lord Jesus will set up His earthly kingdom, as witnessed by what He told the Apostles here:

"That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:30).​

When do the preterists say that this happened?

If Jesus needed 100% of the Jews to accept him (or at least some undisclosed majority), why would he teach in a way that would result in less than majority acceptance?

Because His death upon the Cross would change all this and the Holy Spirit would be sent to the earth. After that, one had to resist the Holy Spirit or else they would come to the knowledge of the truth. Stephen told those who refused to believe the following:

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7:51).​

We can also see what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die" (Jn.12:31-33).​

You have a mountain of evidence against you in all the verses which say that a judgment will happen over a very large area of land after the great tribulation is over. And so far all you have done is to change the meanings of the Greek words which describe a large area of land and say that the meaning of those words are describing the small area of the land of Israel. That will not work, my friend. Especially since these things will happen after the great tribulation will be over.
 
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Danoh

New member
Makes you wonder why people all over the world far outside the Middle East are even bothering with any of this.

Mid-Acts - all Scripture was written for us, but it is not all to us, nor all about us only.

Partial Preterism - it was all written to, for, and about only that part of "the world," all of it already happened, and only... in that part of "the world" - for God so loved only that part of "the world..."
 

Danoh

New member
I figured someone had an answer - that doesn't mean I think it reasonable or Scriptural.

So, if they accepted Jesus, they would have had some special ceremony at the temple where the priest would offer up Jesus as a sacrifice on the alter?

If that was the original plan, and not for Jesus to have been hated and crucified, what do you make of prophecies like Psalm 22 where Jesus' crucifixion by evil, hateful men is foretold? Or Isaiah 53 which speaks of Jesus being despised, scourged, and oppressed?

Obviously God knew Jesus would be rejected by Israel and the Kingdom wasn't going to come at that time (according to your view). I can't square that with Mark 1:15 where Jesus says "the time is fulfilled and the Kingdom of God is at hand."

Jesus was saying that what was prophecied about the Kingdom was about to come to pass. But if it was prophesied that Jesus would die by the hands of those that rejected him, and not by a welcoming ceremony - then it doesn't make sense for Jesus to say the Kingdom was about to come.

That's because you are clearly attempting to reason an answer into, rather than through, the passages.
 

Nimrod

Member
Question for Jerry.

IN Daniel 2 we read

"Daniel Interprets the Dream
31 “You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32 The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

36 “This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39 Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41 And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,[c] but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”

In Daniel 2:44 where it says God will set up a Kingdom. Has this been fulfilled? Or do you see this as a future event?
 

Danoh

New member
Much less from.

That's a good distinction.

When the text "does not appear to make any sense" as written, that is a good indicator we do not yet have information from the whole that might allow the eyes of our understanding to see from said whole through the passage that is not making sense to us, what, at some point turns out was there all along.

The passages are the lens through which we begin to get a glimpse of what perspective the writer was writing from.

But what often happens; and this is often readily obvious from a concluding party's assertion, no matter what said assertion might be, in such instances, that they ended up reading into whatever text it is they are asserting what they are asserting about it. Including a conclusion such as "doesn't make sense to me..."

Such a faulty approach reading right past the condition Mark 1:15implies will need to be met, for example, when its portrait is viewed from a distance just a bit further back; that more of the whole be allowed its important contribution.

Mark 1's implied condition in bold:

14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The view were we to step back just a bit; our own notions allowed to gather their long over due dust...

This passage always chokes me up - our precious Saviour, hurting as He is depicted here; reflecting on that condition He'd made known in Mark 1:15...

Luke 20:

41. And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42. Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44. And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

He then shakes that off, and comes down from that Mount to His Father's House [2nd Advent typology] and proceeds to rip into those responsible for His beloved nation's tragic spiritual condition:

45. And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
46. Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Israel's Splendorous Savior!

Lamb of God!

Lion of Judah!
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Yes, it already happened.

If you think it's literal, is the following literal?

(1 Cor 3:13) their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

Are your works going to be tested with literal fire?

Yet, you think the works in 2 Peter 3:10 will be burned with literal fire.



Your mind has already been tricked into following John Nelson Darby.

BTW, I noticed you didn't even attempt to explain how Jude quoted Peter and proved the last days were in the first century.

Plagiarized-straight from another Preterist writer.


I told you to knock it off, plagiarizer.
 

Danoh

New member
There are some things we don't understand, because we are not Jews. Talk to a Jew about Heaven and Earth or better still read what Jewish theologists write on the subject.

This, from a guy who claims the Spirit reveals himself to him outside His Word.

Here's a rare idea - put away the books and the notions and... you ready, for this?

You sure?

Oh, well; here it is anyway...

Get...

In...

THE...

Book...

and...

STAY...

in...

THE...

Book...
 
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