The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[musterion]

Of course, I believe him. I'm asking you to tell me what has happened since then that is comparable to or greater than the horror of the destruction of God's Temple and the Levitical sacrificial system for all time and the ruin of the people who had been known for centuries to be God's people. And by WHOSE definition is this later historical tragedy comparable to or greater than this?

You appear to miss the vital point: Israel had been cut off and declared lo ammi before AD 70 happened. Paul says that as a nation they had been counted in unbelief, willfully blind and deaf, no longer God's favored people, no better than Gentiles. They remain so today.

But the result was unforeseen in all of Scripture: through Israel's stumbling, God could (and is) showing mercy to any individual by grace through faith in Christ, completely apart from Israel. And so it is today.

Now, if you would, consider something else:

The "new heavens and new earth" began in 70AD.

Examine the Bible's descriptions of the new heavens and new earth.

Do you see it as implemented at any point since 70 AD? If you do, please tell us where. Tet says it is, but can't explain how.

 

[tetelestai]

You appear to miss the vital point: Israel had been cut off and declared lo ammi before AD 70 happened. Paul says that as a nation they had been counted in unbelief, willfully blind and deaf, no longer God's favored people, no better than Gentiles. They remain so today.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Only the Northern Nation of Israel (10 Tribes) was cut off "lo ammi".

God made it clear that He would have no mercy on Israel, BUT that He would have mercy on Judah.

(Hoseal 1:6-7) ..I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. 7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah,..

Jesus said the following to the House of Judah (the Jews) circa 30AD

(Matt 21:43) Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

So, as we see above, the Israelites from the House of Israel were divorced from God circa 740BC, but as of 30AD the House of Judah was still the Israel of God, and it was these Jews from the House of Judah who had the kingdom taken from them and given to a different people.

 

[tetelestai]

I thought you said (it might have been someone else) that Rev. 20 is not yet finished.

Correct.

Right now Christ Jesus reigns with the Saints (the thousand years)

We know from Revelation, that the thousand years will someday come to an end, but before it does, Satan will be loosed for a little while.

This loosing of Satan may have already happened, or it will happen in the yet future, but the passage about fire coming down from Heaven and devouring Satan has not happened yet.

 

[surrender]

You appear to miss the vital point: Israel had been cut off and declared lo ammi before AD 70 happened. Paul says that as a nation they had been counted in unbelief, willfully blind and deaf, no longer God's favored people, no better than Gentiles. They remain so today.

But the result was unforeseen in all of Scripture: through Israel's stumbling, God could (and is) showing mercy to any individual by grace through faith in Christ, completely apart from Israel. And so it is today.

I think I see what you’re saying when you say Israel (those not of the remnant) had been “cut off” (Rom. 11) but the Jerusalem Church continued to reach out to “hardened Israel” just the same until the end of the Temple. Right? After the Temple’s destruction the “cutting off” you speak of took a very literal form. So I can’t honestly say that the “spiritual” cutting off (i.e. giving the kingdom to the remnant) was comparable to the physical destruction of the Temple, the ultimate end of the Levitical sacrificial system, and the ruin of “the Jews” who had been known as “the people of God” for centuries.

 

[musterion]

So, as we see above, the Israelites from the House of Israel were divorced from God circa 740BC, but as of 30AD the House of Judah was still the Israel of God, and it was these Jews from the House of Judah who had kingdom taken from them and given to a different people.

You really are dim.

(Matt 21:43) Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

The disciples and the believing remnant brought forth that fruit, in abundance. In NO sense did Israel bring forth ANY fruit of the Kingdom because Israel refused to bring forth the vital fruit of repentance. So it was that every Jew of any authority, from Jerusalem to Rome, eventually heard the Gospel of Christ and most of them rejected it. All Israel was without any excuse whatsoever. Hence Paul's pronouncement against them at the very end of Acts, that the Word would go to Gentiles.

Israel fell in blindness before 70.

 

[surrender]

Correct.

Right now Christ Jesus reigns with the Saints (the thousand years)

We know from Revelation, that the thousand years will someday come to an end, but before it does, Satan will be loosed for a little while.

This loosing of Satan may have already happened, or it will happen in the yet future, but the passage about fire coming down from Heaven and devouring Satan has not happened yet.

Thank you for your reply!

1) Is there a "second coming" to expect in the future?

2) If his return in 70 AD (the coming of the Son of man) was the second coming, what do you make of 1 Thess. 4:16-17?

3) And what do you make of 1 Cor. 15:51-52?

4) What is next? What do things look like after this life?

 

[tetelestai]

Examine the Bible's descriptions of the new heavens and new earth.

Do you see it as implemented at any point since 70 AD? If you do, please tell us where. Tet says it is, but can't explain how.

The New Heavens and the New Earth.

All our sins have been taken away.

We don't have to beat our ploughshares into swords to defend the kingdom.

It's an unshakable kingdom.

There is no more sea (Jew and Gentile are one new man)

 

[musterion]

I think I see what you’re saying when you say Israel (those not of the remnant) had been “cut off” (Rom. 11) but the Jerusalem Church continued to reach out to “hardened Israel” just the same until the end of the Temple. Right?

That's how it looks, yes. But did the circumcision apostles succeed in seeing Israel as a nation redeemed and bowing before Christ? No.

Did Paul succeed, in his preaching in every synagogue he could visit outside of Israel? No.

Every opportunity Israel the straying, unrepentant covenant nation had received to turn to Christ, it refused.

After the Temple’s destruction the “cutting off” you speak of took a very literal form. So I can’t honestly say that the “spiritual” cutting off (i.e. giving the kingdom to the remnant) was comparable to the physical destruction of the Temple, the ultimate end of the Levitical sacrificial system, and the ruin of “the Jews” who had been known as “the people of God” for centuries.

Again...they were already well on the road to ruin long before that point.

You want to see something enlightening? Do a quick check of the epistles Paul wrote after Acts 28. Count how many times he refers to Israel in the present tense as Israel, like he did earlier in Romans.

 

[tetelestai]

You really are dim.

No, it just appears that way to you because I'm not a Darby follower like you are.

(Matt 21:43) Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

The disciples and the believing remnant brought forth that fruit, in abundance.

We all know there was a remnant.

However, the kingdom of God wasn't taken from the Jews and given to a remnant of Jews.

In NO sense did Israel bring forth ANY fruit of the Kingdom because Israel refused to bring forth the vital fruit of repentance.

What the heck is "vital fruit"?

So it was that every Jew of any authority, from Jerusalem to Rome, eventually heard the Gospel of Christ and most of them rejected it. All Israel was without any excuse whatsoever.

The gospel of Christ didn't leave the Roman Province of Judaea until after the cross.

Any excuse for what?

Hence Paul's pronouncement against them at the very end of Acts, that the Word would go to Gentiles.

Paul preached the Gospel of Christ to the Jew first because Paul knew that very soon the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans was about to happen.

It was very important that Jews in Jerusalem fled the city, and those outside the city didn't go to the city.

(Luke 21:21) Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

It was very important that Paul preach to the Jews first, so that these Jews did not make their pilgrimage to Jerusalem on the four feast days that required the pilgrimage to Jerusalem, otherwise they might get trapped there and killed by the Romans (which did happen to thousands of Jews in 70AD)

Israel fell in blindness before 70.

God divorced Israel circa 790BC.

You should really learn the difference between Israel and Judah.

 

[steko]

It has happened.

The "new heavens and new earth" began in 70AD.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Do you remember anything that happened before 70AD?

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

So.....nobody's cryin' in Jerusalem since 70AD? Right!

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

I heard about a kid dying just the other day and when they checked his birth certificate said born 1915.



Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Ain't no troubles....dat's for sho!

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

I was sitting in the waiting room as my truck had some recall work being done and there was one of these civil court programs on. This guy had taken his lady to a charismatic snake handling church. They showed a picture of the rattlesnake bite on th' lady's arm. I guess the snake thought is was a bundle of straw.

Them sharks is sure been hungry in N. Carolina these days.

 

[musterion]

Steko brings the stuff, every time.

Oh, right. Tet's a leftist so he'll just dismiss all that as allegorical and nonliteral, you silly dispie goose!

 

[tetelestai]

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Do you remember anything that happened before 70AD?

(2 Cor 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Are you literally a new creature?

Did everything in your life literally pass away when you became saved?

Did everything in your life literally become brand new when you were saved?

If no, then try to apply the same logic from 2 Cor 5:17 to the New Heavens and New Earth.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

The "wolf" refers to Gentile nations. The "lamb" refers to Israel:

(Jer 5:6) Therefore a lion from the forest will attack them, a wolf from the desert will ravage them, a leopard will lie in wait near their towns to tear to pieces any who venture out, for their rebellion is great and their backslidings many.

As we see above, the lion, wolf, and leopard are symbolic to Gentile nations that God used to inflict His wrath upon the kingdom of Israel.

We now live in the New Covenant, we don't have to defend the kingdom from lions, wolves, leopards, etc.

In the New Covenant, the lamb has lied down with the lion.

If you don't believe me, then please show that the lion, wolf, and leopard are literal in Jer 5:6?

 

[tetelestai]

Steko brings the stuff, every time.

Er, no.

Steko is however, a polite Darby follower.

 

[tetelestai]

So.....nobody's cryin' in Jerusalem since 70AD? Right!

Correct!!!

(Rev 21:2 KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(Gal 4:26) But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

 

[tetelestai]

Them sharks is sure been hungry in N. Carolina these days.

(Phil 3:20) But our citizenship is in heaven.....

(2 Cor 5:20) We are therefore Christ's ambassadors...

steko, do you understand what it means to be a citizen of Heaven, and an ambassador of Christ Jesus here on planet earth?

If so, then why would you apply prophecies of the kingdom to planet earth?

Look up the definition of "ambassador". You can't be an ambassador unless you live in a foreign country.

So, if you're an ambassador, where is your citizenship?

Try applying the kingdom passages to wherever your citizenship is!

 

[steko]

(2 Cor 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Are you literally a new creature?

GOD calls those things that are not as though they were.
Positionally, I'm seated with Christ Jesus in heavenly places, but awaiting the future literal redemption of my body in the resurrection.
It is then that all things are literally made new.

Did everything in your life literally pass away when you became saved?

Nope, but if you be risen with Christ, set your affections on things above where Christ sits at the right hand of the Father.

Did everything in your life literally become brand new when you were saved?

This....I have been promised. I believe HIM!

If no, then try to apply the same logic from 2 Cor 5:17 to the New Heavens and New Earth.

Same logic applies. Both will be a physical reality.

I believe HIS promises.
You deny them by your allegorical interpretation.

The "wolf" refers to Gentile nations. The "lamb" refers to Israel:

Nope! Isaiah's prophecy is in harmony with Hosea's.

Hos 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

There will be a reversal of the curse placed on creation at the fall.

(Jer 5:6) Therefore a lion from the forest will attack them, a wolf from the desert will ravage them, a leopard will lie in wait near their towns to tear to pieces any who venture out, for their rebellion is great and their backslidings many.

As we see above, the lion, wolf, and leopard are symbolic to Gentile nations that God used to inflict His wrath upon the kingdom of Israel.

Not the same reference at all.

We now live in the New Covenant, we don't have to defend the kingdom from lions, wolves, leopards, etc.

In the New Covenant, the lamb has lied down with the lion.

If you don't believe me, then please show that the lion, wolf, and leopard are literal in Jer 5:6?

Well actually, it says 'the wolf' and this will be literal in the age to come.

Why do people inevitably say 'the lamb and the lion' when it plainly says 'the lamb and the wolf'? Though, I have no doubt that the lion will be in on it, too.

The New Covenant is to be made with Israel when He takes away their sins at Christ's second coming......future.

Jer 5:6 is metaphor but Is 65 and Hos 2:18 are not.

 

[tetelestai]

GOD calls those things that are not as though they were.

Says who?

Positionally, I'm seated with Christ Jesus in heavenly places, but awaiting the future literal redemption of my body in the resurrection.

What happens when you physically die?

Where do you go?

Will you immediately be in the presence of the Lord? Or, do you have to experience "soul sleep" until an alleged future resurrection?

It is then that all things are literally made new.

Paul doesn't use the future tense in 2 Cor 5:17, he uses the present tense.

Nope,

Then why do you apply the same logic to the new heavens and the new earth?

This....I have been promised. I believe HIM!

Again, Paul speaks in the presence tense.

Once again, did everything in your life literally become brand new when you were saved?

Same logic applies. Both will be a physical reality.

What logic?

Your logic is all over the place.

I believe HIS promises.

So do I.

You deny them by your allegorical interpretation.

You deny them because of your literal interpretation.

Jer 5:6 is metaphor but Is 65 and Hos 2:18 are not.

See, this is what you guys do. You have no problem making Jer 5:6 metaphorical, but then criticize me for making other verses metaphorical when you have no rules whatsoever for doing so.

Why is Isaiah 65 not metaphorical but Jer 5:6 is? Especially when Israel and Christ Jesus are referred to as the Lamb of God?

 

[surrender]

...

1) Is there a "second coming" to expect in the future?

2) If his return in 70 AD (the coming of the Son of man) was the second coming, what do you make of 1 Thess. 4:16-17?

3) And what do you make of 1 Cor. 15:51-52?

4) What is next? What do things look like after this life?

 

[steko]

Er, no.

Steko is however, a polite Darby follower.

Tet, your posts have been the contrasting dark background which offset the brilliance of dispensational truth that has brought me ever closer to my dispensational brethren.

Thank you! :e4e:

 

[tetelestai]

Nope! Isaiah's prophecy is in harmony with Hosea's.

Neither are literal.

Paul quotes Isaiah and Hosea in 1 Cor 15

(1 Cor 15:54-57) When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As we see above, Paul quotes both Isaiah and Hosea to show the prophecies have been fulfilled.

Do you believe Paul? Has death been swallowed up in victory?