The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[tetelestai]

Tet, your posts have been the contrasting dark background which offset the brilliance of dispensational truth that has brought me ever closer to my dispensational brethren.

Your "dispensational brethren" are nothing more than followers of John Nelson Darby.

Hopefully one day, you'll see Dispensationalism for what it is.

 

[surrender]

Your "dispensational brethren" are nothing more than followers of John Nelson Darby.

Hopefully one day, you'll see Dispensationalism for what it is.

Stop worrying about people who are stuck! Man, can you even see someone in your freakin' headlights who wants some stinkin' help? You keep getting sucked into their trap, ignoring the ones who actually need help.

edit to add: Sorry...just being impatient.

 

[tetelestai]

1) Is there a "second coming" to expect in the future?

No, the second coming happened in 70AD

2) If his return in 70 AD (the coming of the Son of man) was the second coming, what do you make of 1 Thess. 4:16-17?

1 Thess 4:16-17 describes the second coming that happened shortly after Paul wrote his epistle to the Thessalonians.

3) And what do you make of 1 Cor. 15:51-52?

The second coming

4) What is next? What do things look like after this life?

when the thousand years are over, Satan will be loosed for a little while, then fire will reign down from Heaven, then the Great White Throne Judgement, Satan cast to hell, and then Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father.

 

[tetelestai]

You keep getting sucked into their trap, ignoring the ones who actually need help.

No one needs help more than Darby followers (Dispensationalists)

 

[steko]

Says who?

Says Paul.

What happens when you physically die?

The spiritual me(the 'I') goes to be in the presence of the LORD.

Where do you go?

Will you immediately be in the presence of the Lord? Or, do you have to experience "soul sleep" until an alleged future resurrection?

'Soul sleep' equals death. I have passed from death unto life.

Paul doesn't use the future tense in 2 Cor 5:17, he uses the present tense.

It doesn't matter.....the physical resurrection is future.

Then why do you apply the same logic to the new heavens and the new earth?



Again, Paul speaks in the presence tense.

Once again, did everything in your life literally become brand new when you were saved?

When I was saved, the contrast was so great it certainly all seemed brand new. Yet, the physical resurrection is future. He will return to
redeem the purchased possesion.

What logic?

Certainly not yours.

Your logic is all over the place.

No....yours is.

So do I.



You deny them because of your literal interpretation.

Nah!

See, this is what you guys do. You have no problem making Jer 5:6 metaphorical, but then criticize me for making other verses metaphorical when you have no rules whatsoever for doing so.

There is metaphorical language in the Bible.

Why is Isaiah 65 not metaphorical but Jer 5:6 is? Especially when Israel and Christ Jesus are referred to as the Lamb of God?

Things are what they are.

 

[surrender]

No, the second coming happened in 70AD



1 Thess 4:16-17 describes the second coming that happened shortly after Paul wrote his epistle to the Thessalonians.



The second coming



when the thousand years are over, Satan will be loosed for a little while, then fire will reign down from Heaven, then the Great White Throne Judgement, Satan cast to hell, and then Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father.

Shortly after Paul wrote his epistle the dead in Christ were raised?
Can you explain how the dead in Christ were raised?
Also, in what way were those alive “caught up together (with them who were raised) in the clouds"?
Thanks!

 

[tetelestai]

Says Paul.

Where does Paul say that?

The spiritual me(the 'I') goes to be in the presence of the LORD.

How do you do that without a resurrected body?

'Soul sleep' equals death. I have passed from death unto life.

What state are you in between your physical death and your alleged future resurrection (rapture)?

It doesn't matter.....the physical resurrection is future.

See above

When I was saved, the contrast was so great it certainly all seemed brand new.

"seemed brand new".

That's not a very compelling argument.

 

[steko]

Stop worrying about people who are stuck! Man, can you even see someone in your freakin' headlights who wants some stinkin' help? You keep getting sucked into their trap, ignoring the ones who actually need help.

Tet has certainly helped me a lot.

 

[Stripe]

The preterists say the following about Matthew 24:34:



One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "generation" is "family":

"genea, a/j, Ion. geneh,, h/j( h`, Ep. dat. geneh/fi: (gi,gnomai): I. of the persons in a family, 1. race, stock, family, Hom., etc.; Pria,mou g. Il.; evk geneh/j according to his family, Ib.; geneh/| by birth-right, Od.; geneh.n Aivtwlo,j by descent, Il.:-of horses, a breed, Ib.:-generally, geneh,n in kind, Hdt.:-also a tribe, nation, Persw/n g. Aesch. 2. a race, generation, oi[hper fu,llwn geneh. toih,de kai. avndrw/n Il.; du,o geneai. avnqrw,pwn Ib. 3. offspring, Orac. ap. Hdt.; and of a single person, Soph. II. of time or place in reference to birth: 1. a birth-place, geneh. evpi. li,mnh| Gugai,h| Il.; of an eagle's eyrie, Od. 2. age, time of life, esp. in phrases geneh/| new,tatoj( presbu,tatoj youngest, eldest, in age, or by birth, Hom. 3. time of birth, evk geneh/j Hdt.; avpo. g. Xen" (Lidell-Scott Greek-English Lexicon).​

Now it will now be demonstrated that "family" is the correct translation at Matthew 24:34.

By the Lord Jesus' own admission the "times" and "seasons" have been put in the Father's power (Acts 1:7; Mt.24:36). It is not as if the Lord Jesus had been given a vision in regard to the time when all these things would be fulfilled. Instead, He was the Prophet described here:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" (Deut.18:18).​

The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke.

Therefore, the correct translation of the following passage is as follows:

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This family shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt.24:33-34).​

Of course the "family" refers to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob..

The Lord Jesus' sermon in Matthew 24 foretold of the "great tribulation," a time when Israel will be attacked unmercifully in an attempt to destroy the whole family of the Israelites. Therefore it would not be unusual for the Lord Jesus to assure them that they will not be wiped out and that they will continue to exist. Therefore, He told them that the family would still be in existence when He returned to the earth.

In fact, this is not the first time that such assurance had been given to the family of the Israelites, as witnessed by these words:

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever" (Jer.31:35-36).​

According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the offspting of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him. So there is nothing odd about the Lord Jesus telling the Israelites that "this family shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled," especially with the great tribulation in view.

The ideas of the preterists are based on the assumption that the Lord Jesus would know the time when the great tribulation would happen despite the fact that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible which supports that false idea.

That seems quite a stretch.

Why not just say the prophecy did not come to pass?

 

[surrender]

No one needs help more than Darby followers (Dispensationalists)

Good luck with that!

Seriously, if they're hard core...I don't know...it just seems a waste of time to really invest in all that because they are not in it to learn! Sigh...man...I want to learn!! But I continually get pushed aside with these stupid debates where no one really wants to learn but just wants to seek out the most stubborn of all and go back and forth with him and him alone because feathers get bigger and more colorful the longer they go...or so they think.

:doh:

 

[tetelestai]

Shortly after Paul wrote his epistle the dead in Christ were raised?

Paul wrote his epistle in the early 60's AD

The resurrection happened in 70AD

Can you explain how the dead in Christ were raised?

Prior to 70AD, believers were in Abraham's bossom (Paradise). In 70AD Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and prophets, and therefore believers could be in the presence of God in heaven. Since 70AD these believers (Saints) have reigned with Christ Jesus in the kingdom.

Also, in what way were those alive “caught up together (with them who were raised) in the clouds"?

See above. Since 70AD, believers in Christ are instantly in the presence of God upon physical death.

 

[tetelestai]

Why not just say the prophecy did not come to pass?

Um.....because Jesus was very specific in telling His audience that some of them would not pass away until all the things He said would happen, did happen.

So, Darby followers such as yourself have to make up all kinds of excuses in order to claim Matt 24:34 doesn't mean what it says, because when Matt 24:34 is taken literally, Dispensationalism falls apart like a house of cards.

 

[tetelestai]

Tet has certainly helped me a lot.

Yet, you still choose to follow John Nelson Darby.

 

[steko]

Where does Paul say that?

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

How do you do that without a resurrected body?

I don't do it. He does.

What state are you in between your physical death and your alleged future resurrection (rapture)?

I don't know, but I know that to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.

Can you tell me what 'Spirit' is?

It doesn't matter.....the physical resurrection is future.

I think that was mine.

See above

Indeed, we will!

"seemed brand new".

That's not a very compelling argument.

What.....you think a genuine salvation experience is not compelling?

 

[surrender]

Tet has certainly helped me a lot.

Thanks for that. I think I'm on overload. :-/

 

[steko]

Yet, you still choose to follow John Nelson Darby.

Nah....never read Darby.


Ever read James Stewart Russell? "The Parousia"?

 

[steko]

Thanks for that. I think I'm on overload. :-/

That's certainly understandable!

 

[surrender]

Paul wrote his epistle in the early 60's AD
The resurrection happened in 70AD

Okay. No one saw the dead in Christ rise from the graves like Mt. 27:52? Why not?

See above. Since 70AD, believers in Christ are instantly in the presence of God upon physical death.

But 1 Thess. 4:17 says those who are ALIVE (not DEAD) are caught up with the raised ones.

Did all the ALIVE ones at that time, 70 AD, get swooshed up with the dead saints into heaven?

I mean, there's no historical record of that???

 

[tetelestai]

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

That's a reference to faith and Abraham.

I asked you if you were literally a new creature.

For some reason you deny you are a new creature right now (after you were saved)

I don't do it. He does.

So, you're claiming that after you physically die, you go to heaven without a resurrected body?

I don't know, but I know that to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.

You're contradicting yourself.

You think that when you die, your going to be in the presence of the Lord, but then years later, your going to be resurrected (like that famous rapture picture below), and then given a resurrected body.

Can you tell me what 'Spirit' is?

Holy Spirit, or man's spirit?

What.....you think a genuine salvation experience is not compelling?

No, I just don't see how the word "seemed" could be used to describe an absolute.

 

[tetelestai]

Nah....never read Darby.

You've been taught by someone who was taught by someone, who was taught by someone, who was taught by someone, who was taught by Darby.

Otherwise, you wouldn't keep parroting Darby.

Ever read James Stewart Russell? "The Parousia"?

Of course.

The difference between Darby and Russell, is that many men taught preterism before Russell, but no one taught Dispensationalism before Darby.