The Lie Many Honestly Believed As Truth

[Samie]

David also implored the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit from him and restore to him the joy of His salvation (Psalm 51:10-12). Jeremiah was born sanctified...sure, I could buy that. But the point here is that the nature is already there. God can change the nature but that is really what is critical at the bottom of all of these matters. So is it possible God sanctified some from the womb? Sure. But also remember that that can just mean "set apart". Either way, we do what we do because of who we are - we aren't who we are primarily because of what we do.

The nature of Jesus when the Father sent Him to earth was the nature of sinful flesh because He was sent to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). The fact that Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin though in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, is glaring evidence that the LIKENESS of sinful flesh is NOT compatible with being born spiritually dead in sin.

Again, no one is born spiritually dead in sin. Instead, people are born spiritually alive.

 

[Samie]

This is heresy and Samie from past experience refuses to give up his pet theories like his 'Wednesday crucifixion' charade. There would be no point in being 'born again' if we were born righteous.

Over and over and over again, I have pointed out 1 Pet 1:3 that people were already born again through the resurrection of Jesus. Do you believe what 1 Pet 1:3 says?

Jesus rebukes you.

Your problem is Jesus is with me this side of the fence. He was sent to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, yet He was NOT born spiritually dead in sin. That is glaring evidence that the LIKENESS of sinful flesh is not compatible with being born spiritually dead in sin.

Sorry, but the teaching that people are born spiritually dead in sin is foreign to the Bible. You have not even given any single verse from the Bible that simply hints people are born spiritually dead in sin.

 

[Samie]

It's past midnight from where I am. Good night . . .

 

[nikolai_42]

Psalm 58:3 says wicked people go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. BORN first, then, go astray. NOT born astray. To go astray after being born is different from born already astray.

Read the verse again. It says "from the womb" it also says "as soon as they be born". In other words, that IS the way they are born. You can't "go" anywhere until you are born. This verse plainly says that's the way they go because that's the way they are.

Sorry, the verse does not back up the idea that people are born spiritually dead in sin.
No one in Adam's race is born wicked. They become wicked AFTER birth. No one is born spiritually dead in sin.

To use your request - scripture, please.

For if people are born spiritually dead in sin, then Jesus must have been born spiritually dead in sin because the Father sent Him down to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. But we know Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin, being conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Faulty logic. You are comparing apples and oranges here. Adam and Christ are not of the same "stuff" :

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
I Corinthians 15:45-48

 

[nikolai_42]

The nature of Jesus when the Father sent Him to earth was the nature of sinful flesh because He was sent to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). The fact that Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin though in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, is glaring evidence that the LIKENESS of sinful flesh is NOT compatible with being born spiritually dead in sin.

Again, no one is born spiritually dead in sin. Instead, people are born spiritually alive.

And again I point you to I Cor 15:45-48

 

[Samie]

Read the verse again. It says "from the womb" it also says "as soon as they be born". In other words, that IS the way they are born. You can't "go" anywhere until you are born. This verse plainly says that's the way they go because that's the way they are.

Yes, one can't go astray UNTIL they are born; NOT born astray. God made men upright (Eccl 7:29); they just go astray AFTER birth, NOT before nor during birth.

To use your request - scripture, please.

Already given before you requested. They're in the OP. Lots of verses.

Faulty logic.

No.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Adam and Christ are not of the same "stuff" :

You lost me.
Rom 8:3 is NOT comparing Christ with Adam. It is comparing Christ with the LIKENESS of sinful flesh.
Phil 2:7 is not comparing Christ with Adam. It is comparing Christ with the LIKENESS of men.

Jesus was made in all things like unto His brethren, brethren - plural, not simply singular like Adam:

NKJ Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

That's a generic application. The pattern is His brethren. The resulting copy is Jesus. As copied from the pattern, the copy is born not spiritually dead in sin. Therefore, the pattern is not born spiritually dead in sin.

 

[KingdomRose]

It is not a lie. "Spiritually dead" might be the wrong way to express the fact that all humans are BORN INTO sin and death, or, BORN WITH sin and death inherent in their make-up.

We can't help being descendants of Adam, and that is why Jehovah opted to provide humans with a propitiatory sacrifice.

 

[Bright Raven]

Romans 3:23

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I guess the church just got it all wrong when confessing the summaries of the teaching of Scripture against the heretics of their day:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007

:AMR1:

AMR

 

[TulipBee]

We passed our age of accountability in the Garden of Eden and from the moment Adam sinned we were charged with guilt.

 

[TulipBee]

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead. -R. C. Sproul

 

[Samie]

It is not a lie. "Spiritually dead" might be the wrong way to express the fact that all humans are BORN INTO sin and death, or, BORN WITH sin and death inherent in their make-up.

Scriptures, please...

We can't help being descendants of Adam,

Agree.

and that is why Jehovah opted to provide humans with a propitiatory sacrifice.

Because all have sinned and that's AFTER birth. NOT before nor during birth as in "BORN INTO sin and death, or, BORN WITH sin and death" which is not biblical.

 

[Crucible]

People are born with a curse, they are not 'born sinners'. You have to sin first to be a sinner, and this is a small theological thing which nonetheless has big theological consequence.

 

[Samie]

I guess the church just got it all wrong when confessing the summaries of the teaching of Scripture against the heretics of their day:

I guess so, too.

And Pelagius got it all wrong, too, when he said: "for a person to live a life of obedience to God, a life of moral perfection, is possible without any help from Jesus or without any help from the grace of God".

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007

:AMR1:

AMR

As explained in the OP, because of what God through Christ did for all humans in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, people are born In Christ. NOT born sinners.

Again,

1. The Father sent His Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. Rom 8:3
2. Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men. Phil 2:7
3. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21
4. In all things it behoved Jesus to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17

The PATTERN is His brethren; the resulting COPY from the pattern is Jesus. The COPY was born NOT dead in sin, therefore, the PATTERN was born NOT dead in sin.

 

[way 2 go]

For if people are born spiritually dead in sin, then Jesus must have been born spiritually dead in sin because the Father sent Him down to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. But we know Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin, being conceived of the Holy Spirit.

virgin birth took care of the inherited sinful flesh

As explained in the OP, because of what God through Christ did for all humans in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, people are born In Christ. NOT born sinners.

we are born spiritually alive but inherited sinful flesh

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

 

[Bright Raven]

What is it?

It is the lie that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

If indeed people are born spiritually dead in sin, then they are born NOT in Christ, because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). And to be NOT in Christ is to be apart from Christ. And apart from Christ, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5): he cannot place his faith in Christ; he cannot accept His gift of salvation; he cannot repent and overcome evil with good. IOW, he is doomed.

But Scriptures teach otherwise.

Adam could have, by his own death that day he sinned, paid the penalty for his sin, but that would be his eternal end. He could have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves. So right on that same day Adam fell into sin, God implemented the plan of redemption He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10). God's plan made it possible for man to not only pay for the penalty of his own sin, but also at the same time, give him another shot at eternal life. That plan found fulfillment in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!! Rev 13:8

God through Christ fashioned humanity into the Body of Christ on the cross thereby creating the One New Man: Christ the Head, humanity (Jews and Gentiles) the Body (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died with Him (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9); when the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2: 4-6; Col 2:13), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3).

Now that people are alive, God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30) and given faith (Rom 12:3) so they can please God (Heb 11:6) and gain victory over the world (1 John 5:4), they have His Power (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ on His throne, Who Himself is an overcomer.

KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Scriptures warn against persistence in believing a lie.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 . . . because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie

Knowing the truth yet persisting to believe a lie is siding with the father of lies. John 8:44

1 Corinthians 15:22 New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

 

[Samie]

1 Corinthians 15:22 New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

"For as in Adam all die": if in Adam we die, this means we start off alive, because only those alive can die.

 

[TulipBee]

"For as in Adam all die": if in Adam we die, this means we start off alive, because only those alive can die.

Elects stay and stays alive. Perseverance of the saints.

 

[genuineoriginal]

What is it?

It is the lie that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

Yes.
The lie that people are born spiritually dead in sin comes from Augustine the heretic who brought it into Christianity from Manichaeism.

 

[genuineoriginal]

According to scripture we start off with corruptible seed until we are born again.

1Pe 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We start off with corruptible seed, and not corrupted seed?