There are from the elect who will be thrown into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 8:11-12). God is able to graft into and cut off branches from the olive tree (Rom 11:19 - 22).
The Lie Many Honestly Believed As Truth
- Thread starter Samie
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dodge
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genuineoriginal
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Provide proof from scripture please.
As far as I have found in the Bible, mankind possesses free will from birth to choose good or evil.
dodge
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You do understand that Adam and Eve were created in God's image, and ever since Adam disobeyed God scripture says everyone after that was Created in Adam's image= estranged from God with a sin nature.
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The elect are children of the kingdom. Those thrown out are children of the kingdom.
| Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. |
Those cut off are original branches, hence, elect. Those grafted in will also be cut off if they don't continue in His goodness:
| NIV Romans 11:19-22 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. |
Scriptures are clear. Among the elect, there are those who will be cut off and thrown out. But only God knows who.
Those aren't the elect. They are unbelieving Jews.
Are they the elects? Not in this context no. Read the verses leading up to it. He's applauding the Roman centurion for his faith while saying it's greater than any Israelite he has seen. He's saying that many non Jews (who come from the east and the west) like him will enter heaven and many Jews will not.
“When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”” Matthew 8:10-12 ESV
There's something fishy here. What Jesus called the subjects of the kingdom, you don't consider as among the elect. Are your "elect" not among the "subjects of the kingdom"?
And you simply kept silent on Rom 11. Why?
genuineoriginal
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If that is your only proof for Original Sin, then you are lacking.
Try these verses:
Ezekiel 33:12-19 12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. |
dodge
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genuineoriginal
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Sorry, but I follow Sola Scriptura, not Sola Augustine.
Original sin is from Augustine who got it from Manicheism, not from the scriptures.
That verse does not give a hint that people are estranged from God with a sin nature.
Instead, Scriptures say that the nature Jesus took upon Himself was that of His brethren:
Rom 8:3 - Jesus was sent in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh.
Phil 2:7 - Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men.
Heb 2:17 - It behooved Jesus, in all things, to be made LIKE unto His brethren.
His brethren is the PATTERN. Jesus is the resulting COPY from the PATTERN. As the nature of the PATTERN, so is the nature of the COPY. The nature of the COPY is able to NOT sin, ergo, the nature of the PATTERN is able to NOT sin. The COPY chose to NOT sin, BUT the PATTERN chose to sin.
It's one thing to say it is scriptural. It is another thing to show where it is in Scriptures.
It is one thing to say, "Scripture says . . .". It is another thing what Scripture actually says.
dodge
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Some folks DO NOT want to actually see what scripture says because they disagree or have been taught differently than scripture actually says !
dodge
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To add to my dissection, Paul's makes a useful distinction:
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
Romans 9:6-7
Epoisses
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The 'elect' are like faithful Abraham who believe in Jesus and his gospel. This is not you.
You actually quoted Rom 5:12 and said that that verse says After Adam, everyone was created estranged from God. But nowhere does Rom 5:12 said what you said it said. It appears your statement quoted above very well applies to you. I cited what Scripture actually says relative to the issue but you just kept silent on what I posted.
dodge
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Of course. But the issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin. Not whether they sin AFTER birth, which is a given, because all have sinned.