The Lie Many Honestly Believed As Truth

[Samie]

What is it?

It is the lie that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

If indeed people are born spiritually dead in sin, then they are born NOT in Christ, because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). And to be NOT in Christ is to be apart from Christ. And apart from Christ, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5): he cannot place his faith in Christ; he cannot accept His gift of salvation; he cannot repent and overcome evil with good. IOW, he is doomed.

But Scriptures teach otherwise.

Adam could have, by his own death that day he sinned, paid the penalty for his sin, but that would be his eternal end. He could have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves. So right on that same day Adam fell into sin, God implemented the plan of redemption He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10). God's plan made it possible for man to not only pay for the penalty of his own sin, but also at the same time, give him another shot at eternal life. That plan found fulfillment in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!! Rev 13:8

God through Christ fashioned humanity into the Body of Christ on the cross thereby creating the One New Man: Christ the Head, humanity (Jews and Gentiles) the Body (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died with Him (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9); when the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2: 4-6; Col 2:13), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3).

Now that people are alive, God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30) and given faith (Rom 12:3) so they can please God (Heb 11:6) and gain victory over the world (1 John 5:4), they have His Power (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ on His throne, Who Himself is an overcomer.

KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Scriptures warn against persistence in believing a lie.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 . . . because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie

Knowing the truth yet persisting to believe a lie is siding with the father of lies. John 8:44

 

[Epoisses]

Men are born totally dead in sin. This is our natural state apart from any grace exerted by God on our behalf. Of course grace leads us to Christ and repentance so our condition isn't hopeless. You will never call on a savior to save you from sin until you see yourself as totally sinful. All our righteousness is as filthy rags to a just and holy God. Human depravity is a biblical concept that almost all Christians agree on so it's not a lie. The lie is thinking you have some goodness inside you when the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

 

[Samie]

Men are born totally dead in sin. . . .

Scriptures, please. Sola Scriptura.

 

[Samie]

Why do I ask for Scriptures?

Because people simply say things and parade it as truth. They say people are born dead in sin. But when asked for Scriptures they can't provide any. They cite generalities that occur AFTER one is born.

 

[dodge]

Scriptures, please. Sola Scriptura.

According to scripture we start off with corruptible seed until we are born again.

1Pe 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Samie]

According to scripture we start off with corruptible seed until we are born again.

1Pe 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Start off with corruptible seed until we are born again? And when are people born again? Just 20 verses earlier, scripture says when are people born again:

NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Made alive TOGETHER with Christ when He resurrected (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13), we were born again into a living hope through the resurrection of Christ.

And that's long before we were physically born. We are born already spiritually alive, instead of spiritually dead in sin.

 

[Epoisses]

Why do I ask for Scriptures?

Because people simply say things and parade it as truth. They say people are born dead in sin. But when asked for Scriptures they can't provide any. They cite generalities that occur AFTER one is born.

OK Samie, let's see if you believe the scriptures when they go against your pet theories.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom. 3:9-18

There is none that doeth good, not even one.

 

[Totton Linnet]

While we were yet dead in trespasses and sins Christ died for the ungodly.

When we hear the gospel God shines His light upon our darkened souls and we come ALIVE

 

[Samie]

OK Samie, let's see if you believe the scriptures when they go against your pet theories.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom. 3:9-18

There is none that doeth good, not even one.

Doing good or bad is done AFTER one is born. Not before or during birth. This thread is the lie many honestly believe as truth and that lie is "people are born spiritually dead in sin". Your proof verses tell of people doing evil deeds AFTER birth and reaching the age of accountability. Give me a verse that simply hints at "people are born spiritually dead in sin".

While waiting for you to provide what to me is a missing verse from the Bible, here are the words of the wisest man:

NAS Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

 

[Samie]

While we were yet dead in trespasses and sins Christ died for the ungodly.

When we hear the gospel God shines His light upon our darkened souls and we come ALIVE

Sorry. Scriptures say we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ:

Ephesians 2:4-5 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ

The phrase "made alive together with" is from a single Greek word "συζωοποιέω". If one is made alive when he believes, then that is made alive one at a time, NOT "made alive together with" Christ.

 

[Epoisses]

Doing good or bad is done AFTER one is born. Not before or during birth. This thread is the lie many honestly believe as truth and that lie is "people are born spiritually dead in sin". Your proof verses tell of people doing evil deeds AFTER birth and reaching the age of accountability. Give me a verse that simply hints at "people are born spiritually dead in sin".

While waiting for you to provide what to me is a missing verse from the Bible, here are the words of the wisest man:

NAS Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

Sin is much deeper than good or bad deeds, Samie. Sin is a fallen nature that all men are born with. We are born sinners we don't become sinners after our first theft of a gumball at age 4. David in the psalms said that he was shaped in iniquity and conceived in sin. We are born sinners.

 

[Samie]

Sin is much deeper than good or bad deeds, Samie. Sin is a fallen nature that all men are born with. We are born sinners we don't become sinners after our first theft of a gumball at age 4. David in the psalms said that he was shaped in iniquity and conceived in sin. We are born sinners.

David did not say he was born spiritually dead in sin.

God told Jeremiah he sanctified him before he was born. Apply that to David, and you will have David who was shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin BUT born sanctified. And our issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not. Yet thus far, you have not shown any verse that people are born spiritually dead in sin. You have not even tried refuting what the OP discussed.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Doing good or bad is done AFTER one is born. Not before or during birth.

The Bible does teach man is spiritually dead, until born of the Holy Spirit. It's not scriptural to say babies are born with the Holy Spirit, then lose Him. As others mention, the seed is corruptible.

This is a topic like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, as what practical value is the status of a baby that hasn't yet sinned? If that baby reaches a stage of the knowledge of good and evil, which we call accountability, that child will sin. It's academic where any child began, as we all become members of the none righteous crowd. Nobody was ever in the flesh and without corruption, save Jesus Christ. In practical terms, if you claimed a baby was born with no sin, it doesn't last. If you know anything about babies, they are consummately selfish.

Answer these, then, to indulge your idea. If babies are born of perfect sinlessness, why did the Holy Spirit father Jesus, if there was nothing tainted with the corruptible seed? How do you account for scripture teaching the world inherited Adam's sin? Who else of a human father died an adult, who never sinned? Got any names? If you have no names, doesn't a 100% failure rate of that corruptible seed say something isn't quite right with that baby? Again, when was the baby ever given eternal life by the Holy Spirit? Got one verse on this? When was any baby born again? What you're really saying is the baby is, therefore, born with eternal life, as if some flesh human, Adamic nature of the Garden still exists. Why don't you prove that from scripture? Why don't you look around you, try to find Eden, where all babies must come from, then? Isn't it, rather, that baby is born with a death sentence, as a matter of fact? Do you know of any baby who left this world alive? If not, why not, if they have no sin?

 

[Samie]

The Bible does teach man is spiritually dead, until born of the Holy Spirit. It's not scriptural to say babies are born with the Holy Spirit, then lose Him. As others mention, the seed is corruptible.

This is a topic like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, as what practical value is the status of a baby that hasn't yet sinned? If that baby reaches a stage of the knowledge of good and evil, which we call accountability, that child will sin. It's academic where any child began, as we all become members of the none righteous crowd. Nobody was ever in the flesh and without corruption, save Jesus Christ. In practical terms, if you claimed a baby was born with no sin, it doesn't last. If you know anything about babies, they are consummately selfish.

Answer these, then, to indulge your idea. If babies are born of perfect sinlessness, why did the Holy Spirit father Jesus, if there was nothing tainted with the corruptible seed? How do you account for scripture teaching the world inherited Adam's sin? Who else of a human father died an adult, who never sinned? Got any names? If you have no names, doesn't a 100% failure rate of that corruptible seed say something isn't quite right with that baby? Again, when was the baby ever given eternal life by the Holy Spirit? Got one verse on this? When was any baby born again? What you're really saying is the baby is, therefore, born with eternal life, as if some flesh human, Adamic nature of the Garden still exists. Why don't you prove that from scripture? Why don't you look around you, try to find Eden, where all babies must come from, then? Isn't it, rather, that baby is born with a death sentence, as a matter of fact? Do you know of any baby who left this world alive? If not, why not, if they have no sin?

When are people born again? Read 1 Pet 1:3. And it's in the OP.

As to the babies, did you know that there will be babies in the new earth (see Isa 11:6-9), even if there's no marriage after the resurrection? So where did those babies come from? The only possible explanation is that they are those who died at infancy and were resurrected together with the righteous. The fact that they are in the new earth simply tells us babies are born OK with God, and not born spiritually dead in sin.

 

[Epoisses]

David did not say he was born spiritually dead in sin.

God told Jeremiah he sanctified him before he was born. Apply that to David, and you will have David who was shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin BUT born sanctified. And our issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not. Yet thus far, you have not shown any verse that people are born spiritually dead in sin. You have not even tried refuting what the OP discussed.

You're confusing the natural state of man after the fall with the help we receive from the Holy Spirit. Our natural state at birth is fallen, condemned and dead in sin. Of course we are not left to die in our sins because Christ thru the Holy Spirit is leading all men to the cross and repentance. There have only been a few examples of people who were born filled with the Holy Spirit and those were Jesus and John the Baptist. 99.9999% of all people are not born with the Holy Spirit and need to be born again later in life. How you can even say that people are not born in sin is beyond me. Are you trying to say that some are born righteous?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom. 5:12

 

[Samie]

You're confusing the natural state of man after the fall with the help we receive from the Holy Spirit. Our natural state at birth is fallen, condemned and dead in sin.

You just keep on rehashing that without providing the biblical basis.

Of course we are not left to die in our sins because Christ thru the Holy Spirit is leading all men to the cross and repentance. There have only been a few examples of people who were born filled with the Holy Spirit and those were Jesus and John the Baptist. 99.9999% of all people are not born with the Holy Spirit and need to be born again later in life.

How many times do I have to repeat over and over and over 1 Pet 1:3 that says people have been born again through the resurrection of Jesus? Do you believe 1 Pet 1:3?

How you can even say that people are not born in sin is beyond me.

Until now you have not provided that single bible verse hinting that people are born spiritually dead in sin, and instead wonder I am saying people are born spiritually alive when it is what Scriptures tell us. Here again:
1. The wisest person who ever lived said God made people upright or righteous, but they sought out many inventions.
2. The Father sent Jesus into this world in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. But Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin. Hence, the LIKENESS of sinful flesh is not being born spiritually dead in sin.
3. Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men. So, the pattern is the LIKENESS of men, and the resulting copy of the pattern is Jesus. Was Jesus born spiritually dead in sin? Of course not. As the pattern, so is the copy. Hence the pattern is not born spiritually dead in sin because neither is the copy.

Are you trying to say that some are born righteous?

Yes all are born righteous. Being born In Christ, we are God's righteousness in Him. 2 Cor 5:21

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom. 5:12

All have sinned implies all committed sin, and committing sin is done AFTER one is born, NOT before or during birth. The issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin and the verse does not say people are born spiritually dead in sin.

 

[nikolai_42]

Scriptures, please. Sola Scriptura.

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalm 58:3

So you are left with one of two options :

1. All men are wicked (remember Jeremiah 17:9 - the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked and who can know it..).
2. Only some are wicked (after all, the verse just says the wicked do this). You are still left with some being created one way and others another way. It goes back to nature, not works.

 

[nikolai_42]

David did not say he was born spiritually dead in sin.

God told Jeremiah he sanctified him before he was born. Apply that to David, and you will have David who was shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin BUT born sanctified. And our issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not. Yet thus far, you have not shown any verse that people are born spiritually dead in sin. You have not even tried refuting what the OP discussed.

David also implored the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit from him and restore to him the joy of His salvation (Psalm 51:10-12). Jeremiah was born sanctified...sure, I could buy that. But the point here is that the nature is already there. God can change the nature but that is really what is critical at the bottom of all of these matters. So is it possible God sanctified some from the womb? Sure. But also remember that that can just mean "set apart". Either way, we do what we do because of who we are - we aren't who we are primarily because of what we do.

 

[Samie]

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalm 58:3

Psalm 58:3 says wicked people go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. BORN first, then, go astray. NOT born astray. To go astray after being born is different from born already astray.

Sorry, the verse does not back up the idea that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

So you are left with one of two options :

1. All men are wicked (remember Jeremiah 17:9 - the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked and who can know it..).
2. Only some are wicked (after all, the verse just says the wicked do this). You are still left with some being created one way and others another way. It goes back to nature, not works.

No one in Adam's race is born wicked. They become wicked AFTER birth. No one is born spiritually dead in sin.

For if people are born spiritually dead in sin, then Jesus must have been born spiritually dead in sin because the Father sent Him down to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. But we know Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin, being conceived of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Epoisses]

Yes all are born righteous. Being born In Christ, we are God's righteousness in Him. 2 Cor 5:21

This is heresy and Samie from past experience refuses to give up his pet theories like his 'Wednesday crucifixion' charade. There would be no point in being 'born again' if we were born righteous. Jesus rebukes you.