I wouldn't say the same for apples and for oranges either. Human law is not what this thread is about ("The law of the Lord"), why are you conflating things?
The law of the Lord is perfect
- Thread starter chair
- Start date
TweetyBird
New member
Moses wrote everything down. God said it was ALL written down. It was read to the people from Mt Sinai and onward, and then all the way through the Tenakh.
Verse?
God's law includes things like fines for theft, taxes and many other day to day human things.
The Mosaic law was based on a presumption of innocence. Two or more credible witnesses were required for the court to convict.
Do you have two or more credible witnesses to testify Jesus did not keep the law?
TweetyBird
New member
Actually the following passage in Hebrew would also say "Torah of Elohim", (Torat Elohim), in English transliteration but your favorite translators do not render it that way here either:
Joshua 24:26 KJV
26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, [Torah of Elohim] and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
Does that phrase in bold look familiar to you? It should because it is the same thing you read in most other English translations of the Romans 8:7 passage which I quoted. Your objection has no legitimate foundation and you conveniently used this illegitimate reason to avoid the meat of what was said, (circumcision of the heart). But I was only answering the question you asked of me so there you have it.
You do understand that if Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law, then he would be referring to the sacrificial system of animal sacrifice for temporary sin atonement. It is obvious that Paul is speaking of Christ [His shed blood to atone for sin, once and for all], not Moses. The word "towrah" and "nomos" do not always mean the Law of God or the Law of Moses.
So, are you suggesting that God's law supersedes civil law in day-to-day human things?
Jesus had a Helper.
Hebrews 9:14: "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Part of it is civil law. There is getting away from that.
You could disagree with the Helper about what constitutes "help." If He helps you and you don't see it as help, then you might think He failed to help.
So you're talking about theocracy then? How is your belief distinct from the idea of an Islamic State? (I know Islamic law is different from Torah, that's not what I'm asking.)
Incidentally, the Church teaches that there should be a separation between Church and state, and that states should recognize and protect religious liberty for all.
The Helper helps those who choose his help. The Helper doesn't force us to do anything we are not willing to do.
I stopped allowing other people to speak for Paul a long time ago when it comes to how I understand what Paul writes. What is obvious to me is that you do not understand Paul the way I do. He clearly says in the previous chapter that the Torah is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good, (Rom 7:12), and again he says, "For we know that the Torah is spiritual", (Rom 7:14). So what happened to the "WE" in that case? Antinomians and grace-onlyites are always claiming Paul includes them whenever he says "WE", but not in this case? You do not know that the Torah is holy? that the commandments are holy and just and good? and that the Torah is spiritual and supernal in its meanings and teachings? How speak you of animal sacrifices in such a context? Do you not know that your body is the temple of Elohim and you are not your own? :chuckle:
It is not "me" that is talking about theocracy. Have you actually read the Bible? I don't think the mix of religion and law was unusual at the time.
The Church may have taught separation of church and state, but I have my doubts as to whether it practiced as it preached.
TweetyBird
New member
The "Torah of Elohim" under the Mosaic old covenant was ratified in the blood of animals. The New Covenant Law is ratified in the blood of Christ. We are no longer under the Mosaic Law and the household of Moses, but of Christ and in His household.
The Law of Moses/Covenant was good because it caused death and caused people to sin showing the need for something else. Refer to Jer 31:31-33 in which God said there would be a new covenant and new law, not like the one He gave at Mt Sinai. The prophets all foretold this as well. The imperfections of "Torah" were the shadow that was put in subjection to the Light of Christ - a new covenant with better promises and a new distinct way to live that could not be accomplished by keeping Mosaic Law.
Paul stated that he taught Christ crucified. He did not teach "Torah". Christ taught a new law - never heard before or conceived of until Christ came and taught His new Law. The law and prophets ended with Christ and from then on the Kingdom of Heaven was taught. The "Torah" could not build up a spiritual habitation - it was restricted to the works of the flesh. In Christ, we are all one body, spiritually being built up because of the washing of His shed blood. You are concentrating on Moses, when you should be studying Jesus and what He taught and what He taught Paul.
Do you believe civil law should be mixed with God's law today?
Well how do you think the Church is so sure that this separation, and the freedom of religion, are such good ideas? Centuries of experience. The Church is the most popular thing in history. People naturally thought that the Church should be involved in civil affairs, but she teaches independence from civil authority.
You are only spouting the same old rehashed line we have all heard ten thousand times. Most of what you say is not found in the scripture and only comes from either your imagination or what others have taught you. You may think you know Paul but what you really only know is what others have told you that he says. Simply referring back to the context of what I have posted thus far reveals that you really have no clue what Paul teaches:
Romans 7:24-25 KJV
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul here clearly states that he continues to serve BOTH divisions of the Torah; with the mind he serves the Torah of Elohim, which is Horeb, of the mind, and of above; and with the flesh Paul says that he serves the Torah of sin, which is Sinai, and of below.
Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am: who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank Elohim, [it is] through Messiah Yeshua our Master: whereby with the mind I myself truly serve the Torah of Elohim, but with the flesh [I serve] the Torah of sin.
So then, with Torah of sin and death, which is Sinai, MORTIFY, (put to death), the deeds of the body so that you may live, (Rom 8:13), and MORTIFY, (put to death), your members which are upon your land, (Col 3:5). It is a shame that so many have "done away" with the very thing that Paul tells them they need if they desire to do the will of Elohim.
Oh well, to each his or her own I suppose. :chuckle:
TweetyBird
New member
I have to smile - in your use of the word "Torah" to be defined as the Law of Moses, you have stated that the "Torah" is the "Torah of sin and death" :shocked: and that for sure is not the will of "Elohiym".
The will of God is no longer what He gave to Moses. It was incomplete. It was given as a covenant to Israel, not to the whole world. The new covenant of Christ is for Jew and Gentile. The Mosaic Law is not even the complete law of what is sin and what is commanded of God. In fact, if one could keep the law of Moses, they would be still be dead in sin. The shed blood of animals for atonement was hopelessly inadequate, as is the carnal law of Moses.
Heb 10
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 in burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 and having an high priest over the house of God; 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33 partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Well at least you got one passage that tells you a little something of the will of Elohim:
But do you understand what that truly means?
You do not receive the Promise until AFTER you have done the will of Elohim:
Hebrews 10:35-36
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompence of reward.
36 For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of Elohim, you might receive the promise.
And Paul tells you much more about the will of Elohim:
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Master Yeshua, that as you have received of us how you ought to walk and to please Elohim, so you might abound more and more.
2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the Master Yeshua [the Testimony of Yeshua written in the Gospel accounts].
3 For this is the will of Elohim, even your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor;
5 Not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles which know not Elohim:
6 That no one go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because YHWH is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified [Matthew 18:8-10].
7 For Elohim has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despises, despises not man, but Elohim, who has also given unto us His holy Spirit.
And the "new covenant" Spirit is the full Testimony of Yeshua because it is a kainos-renewed covenant. And Paul here is clearly teaching the parables, allegories, idioms, and sayings of Yeshua as COMMANDMENTS. If your right eye offends you, pluck him out and cast him out of you; if your right hand offends you, cut him off and cast him from you; if your foot is always running swiftly into mischief, cut him off from your midst and cast him from you: MORTIFY the "unruly members" of your "household", (the body-temple is the house). Soul for soul, eye for eye, hand for hand, foot for foot, cut them off before they choke you out and keep you from receiving the Promise. All these things STILL have to do with true circumcision of the heart as in my first comments to you.
Colossians 3:5-7
5 Mortify [put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil lustfulness, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For the sake of which things the wrath of Elohim comes upon the sons of disobedience:
7 In the which you also once walked when you lived in them.
Romans 8:13-14
13 For if you live [walk] after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, these are the sons of Elohim.
It truly sounds to me like you have done nothing more than tell yourself that Yeshua has already done all these things for you. This may or may not be true for you but I know it is true of many who speak and think like you do.
But do you understand what that truly means?
You do not receive the Promise until AFTER you have done the will of Elohim:
Hebrews 10:35-36
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompence of reward.
36 For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of Elohim, you might receive the promise.
And Paul tells you much more about the will of Elohim:
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Master Yeshua, that as you have received of us how you ought to walk and to please Elohim, so you might abound more and more.
2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the Master Yeshua [the Testimony of Yeshua written in the Gospel accounts].
3 For this is the will of Elohim, even your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor;
5 Not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles which know not Elohim:
6 That no one go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because YHWH is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified [Matthew 18:8-10].
7 For Elohim has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despises, despises not man, but Elohim, who has also given unto us His holy Spirit.
And the "new covenant" Spirit is the full Testimony of Yeshua because it is a kainos-renewed covenant. And Paul here is clearly teaching the parables, allegories, idioms, and sayings of Yeshua as COMMANDMENTS. If your right eye offends you, pluck him out and cast him out of you; if your right hand offends you, cut him off and cast him from you; if your foot is always running swiftly into mischief, cut him off from your midst and cast him from you: MORTIFY the "unruly members" of your "household", (the body-temple is the house). Soul for soul, eye for eye, hand for hand, foot for foot, cut them off before they choke you out and keep you from receiving the Promise. All these things STILL have to do with true circumcision of the heart as in my first comments to you.
Colossians 3:5-7
5 Mortify [put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil lustfulness, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For the sake of which things the wrath of Elohim comes upon the sons of disobedience:
7 In the which you also once walked when you lived in them.
Romans 8:13-14
13 For if you live [walk] after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, these are the sons of Elohim.
It truly sounds to me like you have done nothing more than tell yourself that Yeshua has already done all these things for you. This may or may not be true for you but I know it is true of many who speak and think like you do.
Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
New member
The Hebrew word – תוֹרָה – Torah means “instruction”, singular, not “law.” The term – סֵפֶר תוֹרָה – Séfer Torah is literally translated “Instruction Book.” What is the general purpose of an instruction book?
There are 613 Mitz’vot found in Torah, 248 are positive – “you WILL do this;” and 365 are negative – “you WILL NOT do this.”
Not any living Jew, at any time in history, has ever been capable of observing all 613 Mitz’vot. This is because a very large number of them are only observable by specific individuals or groups.
For instance: there are several Mitz’vot that are exclusive to the High Priest, no one else can observe them;
there are several that are exclusive to the King, no one else can observe them;
there are several that are exclusive to all Priests, no one other than direct descendants of Aaron can observe them;
there are several that are exclusive to Levites, which also includes all Priests, but no one else;
there are several that are exclusive to all judicial officials, including the Supreme Court, but no one else;
there are several that are exclusive to members of the Supreme Court only, and no one else;
there are several that are exclusive to farmers, and no one else;
there are several that are exclusive to women and no one else; etc…
There are only 270 Mitz’vot observable by Jews living outside of Israel today; 48 positive, and 222 negative. Being obedient to these is actually a walk in the park, anybody can do it. In the United States there are over 3,000 Federal Criminal Laws; in each State there are tens of thousands of additional Laws. Are any of you in prison for anything? Have any of you ever jay walked? Have any of you ever littered? Have any of you ever received a speeding ticket? Have any of you ever ran a red light?
It is far, far, far easier to be obedient to God’s Commands than it is to be obedient to all of the Laws created by mankind. God would never impose anything impossible upon His people, and He said so:
Deu 30:11-16
(11) For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.
(12) It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell it to us, so that we can fulfill it?"
(13) Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell it to us, so that we can fulfill it?"
(14) Rather,this thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.
(15) Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,
(16) inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, and to observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it.
There are 613 Mitz’vot found in Torah, 248 are positive – “you WILL do this;” and 365 are negative – “you WILL NOT do this.”
Not any living Jew, at any time in history, has ever been capable of observing all 613 Mitz’vot. This is because a very large number of them are only observable by specific individuals or groups.
For instance: there are several Mitz’vot that are exclusive to the High Priest, no one else can observe them;
there are several that are exclusive to the King, no one else can observe them;
there are several that are exclusive to all Priests, no one other than direct descendants of Aaron can observe them;
there are several that are exclusive to Levites, which also includes all Priests, but no one else;
there are several that are exclusive to all judicial officials, including the Supreme Court, but no one else;
there are several that are exclusive to members of the Supreme Court only, and no one else;
there are several that are exclusive to farmers, and no one else;
there are several that are exclusive to women and no one else; etc…
There are only 270 Mitz’vot observable by Jews living outside of Israel today; 48 positive, and 222 negative. Being obedient to these is actually a walk in the park, anybody can do it. In the United States there are over 3,000 Federal Criminal Laws; in each State there are tens of thousands of additional Laws. Are any of you in prison for anything? Have any of you ever jay walked? Have any of you ever littered? Have any of you ever received a speeding ticket? Have any of you ever ran a red light?
It is far, far, far easier to be obedient to God’s Commands than it is to be obedient to all of the Laws created by mankind. God would never impose anything impossible upon His people, and He said so:
Deu 30:11-16
(11) For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.
(12) It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell it to us, so that we can fulfill it?"
(13) Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell it to us, so that we can fulfill it?"
(14) Rather,this thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.
(15) Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,
(16) inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, and to observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it.