The Late Great Urantia Revelation

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freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
What? That's not what most churches teach.

Welcome to the greater world of free religious thought, philosophy and exploration :) - You're welcome to read the OP (opening post) here and the thread-dialogues to learn more about the Urantia Book (UB). The entire text is available online in different venues. The thread search feature also helps, so explore to your heart's content, if interested :surf:

P.S. who said what most churches teach is true? :idunno:
 
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Caino

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While I don't agree with the inference, I'd say it does boil the whole thing down. Either Paul was given a commission by the risen Christ and it behooves us to pay attention, or he was someone making a claim no different from any number of claims.


Same on the inference, but I also had a conversion experience. Surprised me after nearly thirty years of curiously unproblematic atheism. I entered the night one creature and by the grace of God and the presence of the risen Christ became another. I won't bother with details that might only offend your sensibility. Suffice to say it was sufficient to convince me and alter the course of my life.


I don't think it's particularly odd when you consider that Paul was set on the Gentile. It's just a numbers game at that point.


Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:1

And I believe you when you say you were converted, I like the way you framed it "I entered the night one creature and by the grace of God and the presence of the risen Christ became another." I surmise it was as much of a surprise to you
in retrospect as mine was to me. Again I agree with your conclusion, it was "grace". For me I didn't even know what had happened, I stood up from my wretched wreck, called my mother and explained I was ready for a rehab center. 3 months later, clean and sober, having dinner my folks, they were quite, one spoke up, "we don't even recognize you, you have become a different person". I was like, "hummmm ,really"?

Were I to become an evangelist, speaking to a rough first century crowd, I can imagine how my story might need some embellishment for effect. People were so miracle minded in that day........or perhaps people retelling my story, putting me on a pedestal, they might embellish the retelling of my retelling.

There are a couple different versions of Paul in the NT after his conversion. One has him going to the apostles first the other has him going off into Arabia for 3 years. But I have no doubt that Paul brought some of his own ideas into the new religion about Jesus which was inadvertently overwritten onto the religion of Jesus, the pre-cross gospel.

Its not God who changes, its mans understanding of God that changes. As a Father, God has always been forgiving, the crass injustice of God the Son being rejected, mistreated and killed has never been a requirement for God to forgive. It is because man has found it difficult to comprehend Love and forgiveness just because that's Gods nature (something for nothing) that man created the whole Pagan sacrificial system. Jesus never taught sacrifice for sin, that was projected onto his teachings after he left, and perhaps by necessity as a gallon cant fit into a quart.
 

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Were I to become an evangelist, speaking to a rough first century crowd, I can imagine how my story might need some embellishment for effect. People were so miracle minded in that day........or perhaps people retelling my story, putting me on a pedestal, they might embellish the retelling of my retelling.
I appreciate your sharing/testimony and I think an interruption that produces the sort of change any of us are speaking to is in itself a miracle, but I don't know of any particular reason to think that Paul, relating the greatest truth of an altered life, would alter the truth of it in telling. Seems contrary to the thing related and the character evidenced. As to others sufficiently motivated by the experience of God to produce in them a desire to share it, a similar sentiment in gentle rebuttal.


There are a couple different versions of Paul in the NT after his conversion. One has him going to the apostles first the other has him going off into Arabia for 3 years.
I don't see conflict, though I do see the Acts account of his conversion and the Galatians note that after it he spend three years in Arabia. I've supposed that had to do with waiting out both those he'd persecuted and those who'd given him a commission to do greater damage. The latter would have sent out powers to locate him and the former would be fearful and angry with him absent sufficient time for word to scatter about his conversion and personal alteration of mission.

But I have no doubt that Paul brought some of his own ideas into the new religion about Jesus which was inadvertently overwritten onto the religion of Jesus, the pre-cross gospel.
I think Paul notes offering his own thinking at least once and the noting of it speaks to a lack of worry regarding the rest.

Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 1 Corinthians 7:25

Its not God who changes, its mans understanding of God that changes. As a Father, God has always been forgiving, the crass injustice of God the Son being rejected, mistreated and killed has never been a requirement for God to forgive. It is because man has found it difficult to comprehend Love and forgiveness just because that's Gods nature (something for nothing) that man created the whole Pagan sacrificial system. Jesus never taught sacrifice for sin, that was projected onto his teachings after he left, and perhaps by necessity as a gallon cant fit into a quart
I think your notion runs aground on more than a little scripture and, if accepted in foundation, would leave men arguing the particulars of faith like refugees from Babel. I don't mean that harshly, but as a cautionary and dividing note between us, the premise of my Christian faith.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 4:25

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Colossians 2:14

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Ephesians 1:7

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Matthew 20:28





 

Caino

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I appreciate your sharing/testimony and I think an interruption that produces the sort of change any of us are speaking to is in itself a miracle, but I don't know of any particular reason to think that Paul, relating the greatest truth of an altered life, would alter the truth of it in telling. Seems contrary to the thing related and the character evidenced. As to others sufficiently motivated by the experience of God to produce in them a desire to share it, a similar sentiment in gentle rebuttal.



I don't see conflict, though I do see the Acts account of his conversion and the Galatians note that after it he spend three years in Arabia. I've supposed that had to do with waiting out both those he'd persecuted and those who'd given him a commission to do greater damage. The latter would have sent out powers to locate him and the former would be fearful and angry with him absent sufficient time for word to scatter about his conversion and personal alteration of mission.


I think Paul notes offering his own thinking at least once and the noting of it speaks to a lack of worry regarding the rest.

Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 1 Corinthians 7:25


I think your notion runs aground on more than a little scripture and, if accepted in foundation, would leave men arguing the particulars of faith like refugees from Babel. I don't mean that harshly, but as a cautionary and dividing note between us, the premise of my Christian faith.

18 [FONT=&]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [/FONT]1 Peter 3:18

25 [FONT=&]Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. [/FONT]Romans 4:25

5 [FONT=&]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [/FONT]Isaiah 53:5

2 [FONT=&]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [/FONT]1 John 2:2

14 [FONT=&]Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [/FONT]Colossians 2:14

7 [FONT=&]In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; [/FONT]Ephesians 1:7

28 [FONT=&]Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. [/FONT]Matthew 20:28






I understand your faith and the reasons for it, but I'm a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth not Paul of Tarsus. I'm a disciple of the original pre-cross Gospel. Jesus taught salvation by faith and sonship with God, a whole souled dedication to doing Gods will. Paul's Gospel was about Jesus, Christ and him crucified. I believe Jesus lived for the cause of salvation, Paul taught that he died fro the cause of sin. It's not strange that Jews, influenced by the Pagan sacrifices of Judaism, would interpret the death of Jesus as a final sacrifice. IT made sense to Paul, it made sense to the Pagan world that already had such beliefs.

Sect divided Christianity as it stands today was built on a compromise for the sake of acceptance by Jews and Gentiles, for numbers. Such compromises have confused both. But proud Christians and a proud church cannot reform itself.

Before the cross, neither Jesus not his apostles went from town to town teaching Paul's Gospel o "Christ and him crucified".
 

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I understand your faith and the reasons for it, but I'm a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth not Paul of Tarsus.
Now some might be offended by that statement, by the implication in it of conflict and the suggestion of a distinction in difference with the person of Christ. I think you could and should have voiced that differently, but I'll set that complaint aside in answering...To the orthodox Christian church, there really is no conflict. Just as Christ, in fulfilling the law, altered its application, so the message before the cross was necessarily different in application after it and so was the larger mission to the Gentile, God's people having rejected it institutionally.

I'm a disciple of the original pre-cross Gospel. Jesus taught salvation by faith and sonship with God, a whole souled dedication to doing Gods will. Paul's Gospel was about Jesus, Christ and him crucified. I believe Jesus lived for the cause of salvation, Paul taught that he died fro the cause of sin.
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

That's not Paul speaking, it's the Christ, Jesus. Or, Christ called the Jews into a fuller understanding of their obligation. Christ's death did a bit more than that.

It's not strange that Jews, influenced by the Pagan sacrifices of Judaism, would interpret the death of Jesus as a final sacrifice. IT made sense to Paul, it made sense to the Pagan world that already had such beliefs.
Or, Paul did as he was told and there is an understandable reason for it.

Sect divided Christianity as it stands today was built on a compromise for the sake of acceptance by Jews and Gentiles, for numbers. Such compromises have confused both. But proud Christians and a proud church cannot reform itself.
Or, you're mistaken and the greater part of Christendom isn't, that the danger of pride is in judging Paul instead of receiving his message.

Before the cross, neither Jesus not his apostles went from town to town teaching Paul's Gospel o "Christ and him crucified".
It would have been an unfathomable thing to attempt.


In any event, we aren't likely to move the other on a point foundational to our faith, but it never hurts to understand the other fellow a bit better. :e4e:
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Christian truth isn't your thing Caino. You don't understand it nor comprehend it. It would be best if you stuck with something you know rather well. That would be, little green men flying around in their custom made (Flying purple people eater) UFOs. Just trying to help you, little buddy. Oh, the pain of it all.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Just a reminder

Just a reminder

Christian truth isn't your thing Caino. You don't understand it nor comprehend it. It would be best if you stuck with something you know rather well. That would be, little green men flying around in their custom made (Flying purple people eater) UFOs. Just trying to help you, little buddy. Oh, the pain of it all.

I just hit the view button (as I have him on ignore) to see if GM has changed any, but hes still tooting the same horn.

Just a quickie for those following, GM has been fully addressed and corrected about the UB have any UFO connections here and elsewhere. He is just continuing his usual TROLLING (as a cheap shot buffoon), so pay him no mind as hes unable to engage in an intelligent, respectful dialogue without resorting to ad-hoc ridicule, mockery and ad hominems. Ignoring such is the most sane thing you can do.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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I just hit the view button (as I have him on ignore) to see if GM has changed any, but hes still tooting the same horn.

Just a quickie for those following, GM has been fully addressed and corrected about the UB have any UFO connections here and elsewhere. He is just continuing his usual TROLLING (as a cheap shot buffoon), so pay him no mind as hes unable to engage in an intelligent, respectful dialogue without resorting to ad-hoc ridicule, mockery and ad hominems. Ignoring such is the most sane thing you can do.

So, you think "The Urantia Book" that you adhere to, is SANE? I have a funny feeling, you don't know the definition of sane. Am I correct?
 

Caino

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Now some might be offended by that statement, by the implication in it of conflict and the suggestion of a distinction in difference with the person of Christ. I think you could and should have voiced that differently, but I'll set that complaint aside in answering...To the orthodox Christian church, there really is no conflict. Just as Christ, in fulfilling the law, altered its application, so the message before the cross was necessarily different in application after it and so was the larger mission to the Gentile, God's people having rejected it institutionally.


28 [FONT=&]For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

[/FONT]
That's not Paul speaking, it's the Christ, Jesus. Or, Christ called the Jews into a fuller understanding of their obligation. Christ's death did a bit more than that.


Or, Paul did as he was told and there is an understandable reason for it.


Or, you're mistaken and the greater part of Christendom isn't, that the danger of pride is in judging Paul instead of receiving his message.


It would have been an unfathomable thing to attempt.


In any event, we aren't likely to move the other on a point foundational to our faith, but it never hurts to understand the other fellow a bit better. :e4e:

Thanks TH, I admire your intellect and articulation of your position. You are saved in your sincere faith. It's also nice to have a mature person on this thread as TOLs children come here often.

In order for Paul's new Gospel of human sacrifice to have been the plan all along, Jesus would have been insincere in his attempt to reach the Jews thus fulfilling their calling. It's an insult to his life's work and undercuts the establishment of the kingdom of heaven. But fear not, the original gospel of the kingdom will once again be proclaimed and eventually prevail.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
He spent his whole life on the cross of human experience.

He told you and he told those who killed him why he laid down his life and why he took it up again:

On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things.” 19Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”

Although Jesus did not die this death on the cross to atone for the racial guilt of mortal man nor to provide some sort of effective approach to an otherwise offended and unforgiving God; even though the Son of Man did not offer himself as a sacrifice to appease the wrath of God and to open the way for sinful man to obtain salvation; notwithstanding that these ideas of atonement and propitiation are erroneous, nonetheless, there are significances attached to this death of Jesus on the cross which should not be overlooked. It is a fact that Urantia has become known among other neighboring inhabited planets as the “World of the Cross.”

188:4.2 Jesus desired to live a full mortal life in the flesh on Urantia. Death is, ordinarily, a part of life. Death is the last act in the mortal drama. In your well-meant efforts to escape the superstitious errors of the false interpretation of the meaning of the death on the cross, you should be careful not to make the great mistake of failing to perceive the true significance and the genuine import of the Master's death.

188:4.3 Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil-doing of his ancestors. Neither was the Master's death on the cross a sacrifice which consisted in an effort to pay God a debt which the race of mankind had come to owe him. *

188:4.4 Before Jesus lived on earth, you might possibly have been justified in believing in such a God, but not since the Master lived and died among your fellow mortals. Moses taught the dignity and justice of a Creator God; but Jesus portrayed the love and mercy of a heavenly Father.

188:4.5 The animal nature—the tendency toward evil-doing—may be hereditary, but sin is not transmitted from parent to child. Sin is the act of conscious and deliberate rebellion against the Father's will and the Sons' laws by an individual will creature. *

188:4.6 Jesus lived and died for a whole universe, not just for the races of this one world. While the mortals of the realms had salvation even before Jesus lived and died on Urantia, it is nevertheless a fact that his bestowal on this world greatly illuminated the way of salvation; his death did much to make forever plain the certainty of mortal survival after death in the flesh.

188:4.7 Though it is hardly proper to speak of Jesus as a sacrificer, a ransomer, or a redeemer, it is wholly correct to refer to him as a savior. He forever made the way of salvation (survival) more clear and certain; he did better and more surely show the way of salvation for all the mortals of all the worlds of the universe of Nebadon.

188:4.8 When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.

188:4.9 All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one's fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer's chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one's fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

188:4.10 Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution.

188:4.11 Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme, he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of substituting an innocent sufferer for a guilty offender.

188:4.12 The great thing about the death of Jesus, as it is related to the enrichment of human experience and the enlargement of the way of salvation, is not the fact of his death but rather the superb manner and the matchless spirit in which he met death.

188:4.13 This entire idea of the ransom of the atonement places salvation upon a plane of unreality; such a concept is purely philosophic. Human salvation is real; it is based on two realities which may be grasped by the creature's faith and thereby become incorporated into individual human experience: the fact of the fatherhood of God and its correlated truth, the brotherhood of man. It is true, after all, that you are to be “forgiven your debts, even as you forgive your debtors.”


This discourse above bears re-reading,....some excellent pearls :)
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Forgiveness of sin...................

Forgiveness of sin...................

11 John was delighted with his visit to Jerusalem. Matheno told him all about the service of the Jews; the meaning of their rites. 12 John could not understand how sin could be forgiven by killing animals and birds and burning them before the Lord. 13 Matheno said, The God of heaven and earth does not require sacrifice. This custom with its cruel rites was borrowed from the idol worshippers of other lands. 14 No sin was ever blotted out by sacrifice of animal, of bird, or man. 15 Sin is the rushing forth of man into fens of wickedness. If one would get away from sin he must retrace his steps, and find his way out of the fens of wickedness. 16 Return and purify your hearts by love and righteousness and you shall be forgiven. 17 This is the burden of the message that the harbinger shall bring to men. 18 What is forgiveness? John inquired. 19 Matheno said, It is the paying up of debts. A man who wrongs another man can never be forgiven until he rights the wrong. 20 The Vedas says that none can right the wrong but him who does the wrong. 21 John said, If this be true where is the power to forgive except the power that rests in man himself? Can man forgive himself? 22 Matheno said, The door is wide ajar; you see the way of man's return to right, and the forgiveness of his sins.

- from ch. 13 of The Aquarian Gospel
 

Caino

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5. THE FIRST HUMAN BEINGS


62:5.1 From the year A.D. 1934 back to the birth of the first two human beings is just 993,419 years.

62:5.2 These two remarkable creatures were true human beings. They possessed perfect human thumbs, as had many of their ancestors, while they had just as perfect feet as the present-day human races. They were walkers and runners, not climbers; the grasping function of the big toe was absent, completely absent. When danger drove them to the treetops, they climbed just like the humans of today would. They would climb up the trunk of a tree like a bear and not as would a chimpanzee or a gorilla, swinging up by the branches.

62:5.3 These first human beings (and their descendants) reached full maturity at twelve years of age and possessed a potential life span of about seventy-five years.

62:5.4 Many new emotions early appeared in these human twins. They experienced admiration for both objects and other beings and exhibited considerable vanity. But the most remarkable advance in emotional development was the sudden appearance of a new group of really human feelings, the worshipful group, embracing awe, reverence, humility, and even a primitive form of gratitude. Fear, joined with ignorance of natural phenomena, is about to give birth to primitive religion.

62:5.5 Not only were such human feelings manifested in these primitive humans, but many more highly evolved sentiments were also present in rudimentary form. They were mildly cognizant of pity, shame, and reproach and were acutely conscious of love, hate, and revenge, being also susceptible to marked feelings of jealousy.

62:5.6 These first two humans—the twins—were a great trial to their Primates parents. They were so curious and adventurous that they nearly lost their lives on numerous occasions before they were eight years old. As it was, they were rather well scarred up by the time they were twelve.

62:5.7 Very early they learned to engage in verbal communication; by the age of ten they had worked out an improved sign and word language of almost half a hundred ideas and had greatly improved and expanded the crude communicative technique of their ancestors. But try as hard as they might, they were able to teach only a few of their new signs and symbols to their parents.

62:5.8 When about nine years of age, they journeyed off down the river one bright day and held a momentous conference. Every celestial intelligence stationed on Urantia, including myself, was present as an observer of the transactions of this noontide tryst. On this eventful day they arrived at an understanding to live with and for each other, and this was the first of a series of such agreements which finally culminated in the decision to flee from their inferior animal associates and to journey northward, little knowing that they were thus to found the human race.

62:5.9 While we were all greatly concerned with what these two little savages were planning, we were powerless to control the working of their minds; we did not—could not—arbitrarily influence their decisions. But within the permissible limits of planetary function, we, the Life Carriers, together with our associates, all conspired to lead the human twins northward and far from their hairy and partially tree-dwelling people. And so, by reason of their own intelligent choice, the twins did migrate, and because of our supervision they migrated northward to a secluded region where they escaped the possibility of biologic degradation through admixture with their inferior relatives of the Primates tribes.

62:5.10 Shortly before their departure from the home forests they lost their mother in a gibbon raid. While she did not possess their intelligence, she did have a worthy mammalian affection of a high order for her offspring, and she fearlessly gave her life in the attempt to save the wonderful pair. Nor was her sacrifice in vain, for she held off the enemy until the father arrived with reinforcements and put the invaders to rout.

62:5.11 Soon after this young couple forsook their associates to found the human race, their Primates father became disconsolate—he was heartbroken. He refused to eat, even when food was brought to him by his other children. His brilliant offspring having been lost, life did not seem worth living among his ordinary fellows; so he wandered off into the forest, was set upon by hostile gibbons and beaten to death.


 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Human origins.......

Human origins.......

Hi Caino,.....The story of the first humans is indeed wonderful, - could you share if any archeological or fossil findings corroborate the UB account? - particularly the biologic procession of species-development and what branch man came from, related to the primates and lemurs :)
 

Caino

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Hi Caino,.....The story of the first humans is indeed wonderful, - could you share if any archeological or fossil findings corroborate the UB account? - particularly the biologic procession of species-development and what branch man came from, related to the primates and lemurs :)

Apart from the many variations of humanoid and prehumen types of bones that have been discovered, the "missing links" aren't there because evolution is marked by "sudden" mutations with some development stages within organisms.


"Although the evolution of vegetable life can be traced into animal life, and though there have been found graduated series of plants and animals which progressively lead up from the most simple to the most complex and advanced organisms, you will not be able to find such connecting links between the great divisions of the animal kingdom nor between the highest of the prehuman animal types and the dawn men of the human races. These so-called "missing links" will forever remain missing, for the simple reason that they never existed." UB 1955
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Laniakea...........

Laniakea...........

Adding to the video above......


For those following, 'laniakea' is Hawaiian for 'immeasurable heaven',....beautiful isn't it ? Astronomers have given this name to the supercluster in which our own galaxy resides, as we develop better techniques and methods of mapping the universe.

Laniakea: Our Home Supercluster

Our Place in the Universe: Welcome to Laniakea

I've followed just a few small discussions how this relates to the cosmology revealed in the UB, as to whether Laniakea is comparable to our superuniverse Orvonton (one of the 7 superuniverses), or represents a larger cluster of worlds that includes more within the scope of what we can measure at this time :sherlock: :cloud9:
 
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Caino

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Happy Birthday Jesus :drum:




"All that night Mary was restless so that neither of them slept much. By the break of day the pangs of childbirth were well in evidence, and at noon, August 21, 7 B.C., with the help and kind ministrations of women fellow travelers, Mary was delivered of a male child. Jesus of Nazareth was born into the world, was wrapped in the clothes which Mary had brought along for such a possible contingency, and laid in a near-by manger.

122:8.2 In just the same manner as all babies before that day and since have come into the world, the promised child was born; and on the eighth day, according to the Jewish practice, he was circumcised and formally named Joshua (Jesus)."
 

journey

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The ub is not recognized as a source for truth here. We all know that the ub is a fabrication, so we ignore it. The ub might be accepted on a UFO forum, but not a Christian forum.
 
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