Re: You said potato, but I said tomato...
Re: You said potato, but I said tomato...
Originally posted by Apollos
Please be consistent. You can not say "JUST to believe" and then add on to that. Then you ADD have faith. Then you add "confess". This isn't "just" believing...
What you are doing is compiling a LIST of things that man MUST DO to obtain salvation - this is YOUR list. It includes the things that YOU accept as they apply to obtaining salvation. I will even presume you have a scripture for each of these. I accept them all - but your list is incomplete.
I have not been biased into believing that WATER BAPTISM is a "work" as you want to define it - just as I have not been biased into believing that faith and confession are "works" by which one obtains salvation.
These are actions required by God to obtain that which He offers by His grace. By doing these things on your list - to which I would quickly ADD water baptism - one does not EARN anything. These actions are merely the prerequisites that God requires of a man before He grants salvation unto them.
There are works that EARN and there are works that appropriate.
Ask the blind man in John 9:11 - when he did what Jesus said TO DO, he received his sight. Did he EARN his sight. Only the foolish would say he earned his sight.
Such "works" do not make grace void - they complement grace !!
Water baptism is the means chosen by God through which man appropriates the salvation that He offers by His grace!
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Those that do not believe, will not be baptized, and shall be comdemned!
Yes , while Jesus was walking the face of the earth there was requirements and works and rituals asked to be done, but the finished work of the cross wasn`t taken place as Jesus walked on this earth, at that time so the following of Christ was done by works ,laws and rituals including circumcisions,going to the temples and addressing high priests.
The finished work of the cross was paid for those who believe in full and not a half way salvation of the blood of Christ which washes our sins alway not the water.
The water baptismo is an outward example of what the blood has already done to those who accepted Jesus as lord and believe so they won`t be damned.
But don`t get me wrong I believe a real born again christian should be water baptized but not as a reqirement or condition to earn to get saved.
Yes, we should obey Jesus and follow Him but don`t put the cart before the horses.
After getting saved, and born again with your heart, and ask the blood of Jesus to wash us.
Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
We should read our bibles , pray, get filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues,help the needed, go to church,have a relationship with other christians, fast,pay tithes, give offerings,witness,lay hands on the sick, and of course get water baptized .
Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro:10:8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
yes I preach Christ death ,burial, and resurrection, and having a faith relationship with Jesus and not a water down gospel.
A Philippian jailer asked (Acts 16:30) an important question to Paul and Silas: "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" In response (v. 31) Paul and Silas said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved." Paul didn't include water baptism! After the jailer responded Paul baptized him. The more consistent pattern therefore seems to be this. Unbelievers heard the gospel and responded. Then they were immediately baptized (immersed) in water at moment of faith.9 The preaching of the apostles does not demonstrate that baptism is a necessary condition for salvation. Paul in fact drew a clear distinction between the preaching of the gospel and baptism when he said, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (I Cor 1:17)
VI. The claim that Jesus made water baptism a necessary condition for salvation is also false. Although it is possible that John 3:5 is an allusion by Jesus to water baptism it is unlikely.10 Let us then consider Jesus' statement in Mk. 16:16, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved..."11 Does this prove that Jesus believed water baptism was a necessary condition for salvation?
The position of the Church of Christ with regard to this passage can be stated via a syllogism:
Premise #1: Anyone who believes in Jesus and is baptized will be saved.
Premise #2: Although Joe believes in Jesus, he has not been baptized.
Conclusion: Joe will not be saved.
However, this argument is not a valid one.12 The invalidity of this argument form can be shown by considering a different example.
Premise #1: Everyone who is enrolled at Northwestern and lives in a dorm is a college student.
Premise #2: Joe does not live in a dorm.
Conclusion: Joe is not a college student.
Obviously this is false. Joe may be a Northwestern student who lives in an apartment off campus.
This logical fallacy is often called the "Fallacy of Negative Inference." The Church of Christ commits this fallacy by arguing that passages like Mark 16:16 teach that one must be baptized to be saved. All this passage says is that baptism plus belief results in salvation. This passage says nothing about one who places their faith in Christ but has not been baptized. Therefore, the claim made by the Church of Christ that Jesus made baptism necessary for salvation can not be supported by this passage.
To prove that water baptism is necessary for salvation a Church of Christ representative must produce a verse like Mark 16:16b ("he who disbelieves is condemned") stating that without water baptism one can not be saved.13 Finally consider Jesus' words to the thief on the cross (who more than likely was not taken off the cross and baptized before he died), "Truly I say to
you, today you shall be with me in paradise." This brings us to the question, "What is the necessary and sufficient condition for salvation?"
VII. The overwhelming testimony of Scripture is that faith alone is both a necessary and sufficient condition for salvation. By necessary and sufficient I mean that not only is faith necessary for salvation (both sides agree about this), but that faith is also sufficient.14 A study of the word group believe, belief, faith, and save will demonstrate this. The Greek verb pisteuw (that is translated "believe") occurs 248 times in the N.T. and can mean believe, trust, or entrust. pisteuw occurs 100 times alone in the gospel of John. This is not surprising. John wrote, "But these things have been written that you may believe (pisteuw) that Jesus is the Christ...and that by believing you may have life in His name." (Jn. 20:31) In John 1:12 John wrote that all "who believe in His name" are children of God. John 3:16 recorded, "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Also consider John 3:18 and 7:38, 39.
In Peter's second sermon (Acts 10:43) he said, "everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Another example from Acts 16 is the Philippian jailer. Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved..." In Rom. 1:16 Paul said that the gospel is the power of God to salvation to all who "believe." In Rom. 3:21-26 Paul talked about how unrighteous sinners can stand in the presence of a righteous God. Paul described how God "justifies" sinners (v. 22). "this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." (NIV) In Rom. 4:1-12 Paul argued that Abraham was saved, not because he was circumcised, but through faith ("belief"). In Rom 10:9 Paul stated, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved..." In Eph. 1:13 Paul wrote, "after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him..."
The noun form of pisteuw is pistiz and occurs 244 times in the New Testament. It can mean faithfulness, trust, faith, or refer to a set of beliefs. The following passages use pistiz (faith or belief) in reference to salvation: Rom 5:1, 2; Gal 2a;16; 3:2, 5, 6, 24, 26; Eph 2:8, 9. None of these passages link baptism to salvation. The Greek word translated save is swzw. It occurs 111 times in the New Testament. None of the following passages present water baptism as a condition for salvation: John 3:17; 10:9; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 11:14; 15:1, 11; 16:30; I Cor 1:18, 21; 15:5. The only passage linking baptism to salvation is I Pet. 3:21. It is dealt with next. What we see from a study of the Greek word group believe (verb--pisteuw), faith (noun--pist iz), and save (verb--swzw) is that faith alone15 is the necessary and sufficient condition for salvation.
VIII. Passages that describe baptism as conferring the benefits of salvation may be referring to something other than water baptism or may be using baptism in a symbolic way. Consider I Cor. 12:13. Paul wrote, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...we were all made to drink of one Spirit." In what way was Paul using the word baptism? Although the exact meaning of this passage is disputed, what is clear is that Paul used the word baptize figuratively. The Holy Spirit did not baptize us in water. Rather, this "baptism" involved our inauguration into the family of God. Paul argued similarly in Rom 6:4, 5; Gal. 3:27; and Col 2:12, 13.
I want to consider two passages: Rom. 6:4, 5 and I Pet. 3:21. In Rom 6:1 Paul responded to an objection raised against justification by faith. The objection is that if we are under grace, won't our motivation be to sin? Paul argued that the reason being under grace is not an excuse for sin is because believers have died to sin. As evidence of this he pointed to baptism (v. 3). "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into his death?" Paul was saying, "Wait a minute; you don't understand. When you placed your faith in Christ you were joined to Christ. Just as he died, was buried, and was raised to new life so were you(see v. 4)."
From our survey of Acts we saw that individuals were baptized at the time of faith. Paul was pointing these believers back to their baptism (when many of them presumably placed their faith in Christ). He was saying , "Don't you know that when you were baptized you were taking place in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ? While you were being baptized in water, something far more important happened--you were baptized into Christ."
In other words their water baptism had a very rich symbolism. It pictured their participation as believers in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This understanding of Rom. 6:3-5 does not imply that baptism is a necessary condition for our salvation but an attendance circumstance that witnesses what takes place at conversion in the spiritual realm. Therefore Christian baptism is quite different from the baptism of John the Baptist because it points to what Christ accomplished on the
cross.
I will now consider Peter's statement about baptism found in I Pet. 3:21. Peter wrote, "And corresponding to that baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Regardless of one's views on water baptism, this confusing passage does not teach that water baptism (alone) saves.16 Peter said, "not the removal of dirt" (i.e. water baptism).
Yet, to what kind of baptism was Peter referring? Did he mean water baptism or was he using the term in a figurative way? If he was referring to water baptism, in what sense did it save? Peter compared baptism to Noah's experience (v. 20). Noah was saved by an ark through water. This water represented God's judgment upon wickedness. Peter suggested that this deliverance of Noah through the waters of God's judgment was symbolic of baptism. Hence we see another part of the imagery of baptism.
From Rom. 6 we know that baptism pictures our co-participation with Christ in his death and resurrection. Christ experienced God's judgment (on our behalf) in his death and burial. Yet, He was also raised. Therefore water baptism also pictures our joining with Christ in passing through God's judgment to new life. We will safely pass through God's judgment because we were joined to Christ and he was raised from the dead.
AMEN!
