The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[JustAChristian]

still waiting for an answer.

still waiting for an answer.

Originally posted by c.moore


still waiting for an answer.

peace

c.moore poses some question for me to answer. Join me in another session with success. I will answer c. moore but do not expect it to avail anything...

what do you think in the mouth of two or three witnesses mean JustAchristian?????

Your question deals with the subject of discipline. It touches primarily on the manner in which we handle sins conducted by elders of a congregation. We all know that Acts 20:28 speaks of the Holy Spirit making elders the overseers of the congregation. Then surely they are to take the lead in this matter of the ultimate discipline. Heb. 13:17 states, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves." Thus, when the elders make a decision to announce a withdrawal of fellowship from some brother or sister in Christ, those of us who are members of the congregation must respect that decision, and as far as that is concerned, so should Christians in other areas who are aware of it. We often quote Jude 1:3 where it says "earnestly contend for the faith." I know we believe this, and I believe that most elders do, but they should "earnestly contend for the faith" in this matter of discipline as they should in all matters. Sometimes elders (shepherds; overseers; or pastors) are reluctant or refuse to lead in this business of discipline. I'm not for jumping on elders (preferred term, JAC) too quickly for the Bible does not allow us that freedom, but if elders cannot be persuaded to do what they ought to do in disciplining then they, too, are subject to disciplinary action. 1 Tim. 5:19 says, "Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses." Then verse 20 states, "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." Yes, elders are human, and elders make mistakes, and elders can be subject to discipline if they do not carry out their God-given duties to lead the flock in the proper way.

Can we just take one scripture and make a complete doctrine out of it like the mormon did with the water baptism for the dead for instance????

It would seem to me that the fullness of truth on a single subject can rise from one verse. Noah built an ark from gopher wood (Gen. 5:14). That is seen only in one verse. I don’t really know what you are trying to get to. If it is trying to discount baptism in water for the remission of sin, you’re “barking up the wrong tree” for the New Testament is full of water; in fact the whole bible is full of water. The Mormons are wrong in their understanding of baptism for the dead. They practice proxy baptism which is not scriptural. In the point of baptism for the dead, it was a practice that did not have the indorsement of the church. It did show, however, that there were some who saw the importance of baptism so much that they were concerned about those who had died without being immersed. The Bible plainly teaches that it is suffered unto man once to die and after that the judgement (Heb. 9:27). One’s situation can not change after death.

I wouild like to ask you A question what church do you belong to or have felowship with???

The church that I am a member is also the one that I have fellowship with. It is the Lord’s church. It was founded by Jesus Christ on the first Pentecost after His resurrection. The Lord adds to His church daily those who believe and are baptized (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:42-47). It is called the church of Christ (Romans 16:16). It also is named by other biblical names. Some names that do not associate with this biblical institution are readily seen in the world today, but have a doctrine very different than the New Testament church. I continue that if one worships God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24), they can be a part of the church. The apostasy of the church in the first century forward all but eliminated the true church. It has survived the Catholic church, the Reformation movement, and numerous divisions. It has no earthly headquarters (Phil. 3:20). It has no earthly conventions or synods or associations. The law of the church of Christ is the New Testament. All faithful churches of Christ meet on Sunday. The worship consist of preaching of the gospel, singing without instruments of music, communion of the Lord’s Supper, prayer to God through Jesus Christ and collection for the saints and work of the church. Some congregation have Sunday bible classes that meet prior to or after the period of worship. There are more that 18,000 congregations of the church of Christ in the United States and many more congregations throughout the world. Since we do not have an earthly headquarters, we do not conduct a census of the faithful membership. Jesus know His sheep so we do really become concerned in numbers. Everyone has the right to be a member of the church of Christ. If you believe that Jesus is God’s son and will be cleansed of sins by immersion for the remission of sins you can be just a Christian like me.

do you have a pastor in your church and do you think all that he preach if you obey and go to a church are lies????

First of all, I don’t have a church. I belong to the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. We have a number of elders in our congregation. The preacher is not an elder, but could be if appointed by the congregation. Why should I think that all the preacher preaches is a lie?

Now, go out and do the right thing!

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Francisco
la rubia,

You've made some excellent points, all of which I agree with.

Freak,

Does your definition of belief in Jesus only include mental belief, or would you agree that true belief would necessarily include doing what Jesus tells us to do. Scripture does say that those who love Jesus will obey His commandments. Maybe your definition for 'believe' is just too narrow and seems to make the scriptures you cite disagree with the scriptures cited by myself and others?

God Bless,

Francisco

PS - Are you coming through S. Florida on the way back from your island adventure? I may be down there the 2nd or 3rd week of Feb?

Mental assent isn't good enough for even the demons believe in Jesus. Belief, as mentioned by Jesus means a commitment (the Greek Text points this out). A commitment of ones life to His life-thereby bringing justification. After this commitment to Christ one ought to be water baptized not for the remission of sins (for that has already happened) but rather as a witness to the world.

***I hope to come through South Florida. I'll keep you posted my friend.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Freak
Let's take a look what Jesus says:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

"That everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

"I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "

These are the words of Jesus, la rubia.

The above verses speak for themselves.

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

If belief involves commitment, would you agree that commitment necessarily involves doing what Jesus commanded, including baptism?

Francisco

 

[Kevin]

la rubia,

JAC, Francisco, Kevin, and all the rest of you have done an excellent job on this thread. I've never posted here, but I keep up on it always. You've done a great job.

Thank you so much for the compliment. God bless you. :up:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Francisco
Freak,

If belief involves commitment, would you agree that commitment necessarily involves doing what Jesus commanded, including baptism?

Francisco

Commitment to the life of Jesus. Baptism follows the decision to commit my life to His. This is a one time event. When I made a commitment to my wife in marriage it was a one-time event. I don't need to get married again. Faithfulness, forebearance, etc follow. I have already started the marriage relationship with my wife. I have already begun my personal relationship my Savior. No need to re-do my decision. I already made it. I made a decision and I was immediately justified.

"Having been justified by faith."

 

[Kevin]

Take the test!

Take the test!

I'm still waiting to hear from somebody on how we can die with Christ by any other means other than baptism.

 

[Francisco]

Kevin,

I didn't previously resond because you and I are of the same mind on this issue. However, there is one other way to 'die with Christ' that has the same effect as baptism, martyrdom. Personally, I think I would choose baptism if given the choice...

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[geralduk]

Re: Take the test!

Re: Take the test!

Originally posted by Kevin
I'm still waiting to hear from somebody on how we can die with Christ by any other means other than baptism.

Seee my last posts.

But let me ask this:

WHEN did Christ die?

Then HOW through BAPTISM can we die WITH Him?
How can what WE do;do THAT which ONLY God can do?In otherwords.
WHY did Christ die?
and WHAT was ACCOMPLISHED?
If we "are RECONCILED TO GOD by HIS death" then it is HIS death NOT ours THAT saves US AND RECONCILES US TO GOD.
HOW?
For that you must go to the book of ROMANS there is not enough space to do it here and Paul does it more CLEARLY than I could.
But in effect God "condemned SIN in teh flesh" and has ALREADY judged it on CALVARY.
"fOR HE WHO KNEW NO SIN BECAME SIN THAT WE THROUGH HIM MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTOUSNESS OF GOD"
THEREFORE this body of sin was crucyfied WITH Him for IN Him the END OF ALL FLESH has come. and because the Law WAS FULLFILLED IN HIM and FOR us. we are through FAITH in THAT WORK of God;reconciled.

Now your question was how we can DIE WITH Christ save through baptism?
Now as Christ DIED 2000 YEARS AGO your or mine baptism CANNOT do THAT work for it has ALREADY BEEN DONE!
For FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE of things UNSEEN the evidence of things HOPED FOR"
Therefore our FAITH ahs by the UNDERSTANDING of the GOSPEL been put in GODS WORK on calvary.
AND IN HIM who is the SECOND and LAST Adam a new CREATION in Him.
For GOD nailed the OLD ONE TO THE TREE .
and it is our FAITH in THAT work THAT RECONCILES US TO GOD!
there fore we are SAVED by GRACE not of WORKS(ours) LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.
and even as those in the OLD TESTAMENT looked FORWARDS by faith to the SAME END as we who look BACKWARDS IN FAITH.
HAVING by THAT FAITH RECIVED THAT WHICH GOD BY GRACE WORKED THEN AND NOW IN US.
has ALREADY saved us "and through faith "ARE crucyfied WITH Christ...."
Therefoe BAPTISM in water is the SUBMISSION of the BODY what the HEART has ALREADY submitted to by FAITH.
First the INWARD then the OUTWARD MANIFESTATION!
Therefore the WORK OF RIGHTOUSNESS is NOT unto salvation BUT conformity to that WILL OF GOD which before was not to our nature BUT NOW A SNEW CREATURES IS TO OUR JOY.
AND SO we present our bodies aliving sacrafice unto God which is our reasonable service"
Therefore we are NOT saved by our baptism to make us rightous.
but it is the OUTWORKING of that rightousness WHICH WE ARE NOW fullfilling/
"the law of ChrisT"
For even as He was baptised IN WATER we in COMFORMITY to the image of His Son,FOLOW.
For He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.

sO ILL REPEAT..




WATER BAPTISM is the CONFORMITY of the BODY to that which has been ALREADY wrought in the HEART and it is the WILLING SUBMISSION (AS IT WAS HIS) to the will of the FATHER being now sons.

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

When you married your wife you made the commitment 1 time. But part of the commitment you made involved doing certain things. If you don't do those things you committed to doing, you have broken your marriage vows and given her the opportunity to dissolve the covenant she entered into in good faith. For instance, if you were unfaithful to your wife she would have every right to divorce you.

So again, do you think committing to the life of Jesus necessarily involves doing anything? If so, and you fail to do something you've committed to, does Jesus have the right to dissolve his agreement with you?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[geralduk]

Re: Baptism Saves...

Re: Baptism Saves...

Originally posted by JustAChristian


In your own mind and by your own reasoning you have determined that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. However, the New Testament addresses extensively that baptism is association with salvation (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Gal. 3:27; 1 Peter 3:21). You are "butting heads" with inspired scripture from God. It is a shame that you feel you know more than God.

JustAChristian :angel:

What I UTTERLY and COMPLETELY reject.
is the notion that by MY act(WORK) of baptism I am saved.
This I have adequately shown to be so.

You are confusing the notion of what salvation is?
is the best reason I can come up with for your error but I fear IT IS WORSE.
To be BORNagain is to be saved MADE A CHILD OF GOD a son by the Spirit and the Word.
NO man can do this it is the WORK of God and the Will of God oin RESPNSE to a mans FAITH in God and His Word.

But being BORNagain is NOT the end but ONLY the beginning.
and PART of our 'SALAVATION' is being BAPTISED in WATER.
This is NOT ther same as baptism of the Holy Spirit.
because not only was there a DIFFERENCE betwen the two.
The WATER and the DOVE.
But it is alos confirmed by the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT on the day of penticost in which there was NO baptism of water.
So in the mouth of TWO witnesses it si estblished.

Thererfore though we are NOT saved by baptism in water.
and can be .
yet if we wish to be PERFECT in our WALK with God we should be! for the reasons I have already stated in my posts.
Therfore baptism in water is a WORK of RIGHTOUSNESS according to FAITH and in comformity to Christ.
And no amount of scriptures can REFUTE a CLEAR and CERTAIN scripture that says CONTRAry.
By the WORKS of the LAW shall NO man be justyfied!
Therefore NO work of the FLESH can JUSTYFY MEN before God.
so if you are NOT justyfied you are not saved!
and if this post went to a 1000 posts it would not change it nor I.

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

My point is that in committing to Jesus, just as your marriage commitment, you promised to do certain things. Am I correct, or no?

 

[JustAChristian]

What Does Baptism In Water For The Remission of Sin Accomplish?

What Does Baptism In Water For The Remission of Sin Accomplish?

geralduk says...

"WATER BAPTISM is the CONFORMITY of the BODY to that which has been ALREADY wrought in the HEART and it is the WILLING SUBMISSION (AS IT WAS HIS) to the will of the FATHER being now sons"

The Bible plainly says...

Baptism: “...Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:20-21 AV)

Baptism has nothing to do with cleansing the body. Peter wanted us to clearly see this. There is no CONFORMITY of the body to that which is already wrought in the heart in baptism. Baptism is for the cleansing of the heart (soul) of sin. It is the soul that is preserved not the body.

You can not be born again without immersion. “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.” (Luke 8:11 AV kingdom of God.” (John 3:3-5 AV)


“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.” (James 1:17-18 AV)

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13 AV)

“...Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:21-23 AV)

“ If Jesus says we must be born again, then there must be something wrong with our first birth”

The thing wrong with the “first birth” is that “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “As it is written, “There is none righteous, no not one” (Rom. 3:10). “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s Book of life” (Rev 21:27). He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father and before His angels (Rev 3:5). Nicodemus needed to be reborn because his physical life was not sufficient to gain heavens domain. Like every one who lives on the earth, unless there is obedience to the command to be born of the water and the Spirit, one cannot enter heaven. This is done when one “...obey (s) from the hear that form of doctrine which was delivered you” (Rom.6:17). What is the form of doctrine which was delivered you? It is the gospel. This is all that the apostles delivered unto salvation (Rom 1:16). Therefore to obey the gospel is to be born again (Hebrews 5:8-9). Jesus told the apostles “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel (the good news of God’s salvation, justification glorification (grace) to every creature; he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that disbelieveth shall be damned” (Mark 16:15-16).

David was born into a world riddled with sin. No one is born a sinner as the Calvinist and Catholics teach, because the Bible plainly teaches that “...the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Gen 8:21). Man is not born evil but digresses at an early age. The Catholics tried to dodge this issue by making Mary “immaculate” saying that she did not inherit sin so the Jesus would not be born with sin, but it is a “wresting of the scriptures to their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16). Ezekiel also wrote that man does not inherit sin saying, “ The soul that sinneth it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him” (Ezekiel 18:20).

As for David recognizing his need of a new birth. This concept was never preached by any prophet before Jesus (John 1:17). Those under the preaching of the OLD Testament prophets and the law were to be in obedient to the law. This did not save them, but their righteousness is observed in their faith (see Hebrews 11 for the family of faith), and the blood of Christ covers them (Heb. 9:15). Jesus requires a new nature called “the new birth” under the NEW Testament. “Whosoever will can partake of the waters of life”, not just a predetermined number that is numbered by God. God gives man free will and he must exercise it in obedience of faith (Rom 1:5).

Holy Spirit baptism is not possible to bury the old man of sin. We are to bury the old man of sin ( Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9). The old man of sin is buried in water baptism (Rom. 6:3-5). Baptism by immersion is essential to the burial of the old man of sin. And since the old man of sin cannot enter into heaven, therefore, it is essential that one be baptized in water in order to enter heaven. If not ,why not?

Holy Spirit baptism can not be the baptism of Eph. 4:5 since one is to go down into water and coming up out of water to be baptized (Acts 8:38-39). This can not be done in Holy Spirit baptism.

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Francisco
Freak,

When you married your wife you made the commitment 1 time. But part of the commitment you made involved doing certain things. If you don't do those things you committed to doing, you have broken your marriage vows and given her the opportunity to dissolve the covenant she entered into in good faith. For instance, if you were unfaithful to your wife she would have every right to divorce you.

So again, do you think committing to the life of Jesus necessarily involves doing anything? If so, and you fail to do something you've committed to, does Jesus have the right to dissolve his agreement with you?

God Bless,

Francisco

You said: When you married your wife you made the commitment 1 time.

That is exactly my point. It is a one time event that made me a married person. Same with Christianity-take Christ into your life and you immediately become a Christian.

Now, Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us (even when we fail him). The Son of God once said: No one will be able to snatch them from my hand. That would include ourselves.

 

[Kevin]

I know it's long, but please read...

I know it's long, but please read...

geralduk,

WHEN did Christ die?

About 2000 years ago.

Then HOW through BAPTISM can we die WITH Him?

By being immersed in water for the remission of our sins, just like the eunuch in Acts 8.

How can what WE do;do THAT which ONLY God can do?

Define your arguement. How can we do what? Baptize?

In otherwords. WHY did Christ die?

Christ died that we may live. He sacrificed Himself, and by His sacrifice and blood, we recieve the forgiveness of our sins. But that is conditional. We will only have our sins forgiven by His blood IF we do what we are commanded to do for the remission of our sins: Baptism in His name.

and WHAT was ACCOMPLISHED?

Salvation was made possible to those who believe and obey Him (Heb 5:9).

If we "are RECONCILED TO GOD by HIS death" then it is HIS death NOT ours THAT saves US AND RECONCILES US TO GOD.

Yes, it is by the death of Christ that reconciliation is possible. Yes, possible. For if one does not believe and obey the gospel, they certainly aren't reconciled to God, but rather are damned to the wrath of God and will end up in hell (2 Thes. 1: 8,9)

Our Lord Jesus Christ tells us how to become reconciled in John 3:3. He tells us to that we must be born again. If you want to see heaven, one must be born again. And as I said in one of my previous posts, one must die in order to be reborn... for the following reasons:

• Logic demands it. Can one be born again into the Spirit while still living in his previous life of sin? Impossible. A death must occur so that a new life can begin.
  
• We must die with Christ in order to live with Christ (2 Tim. 2:11)

You HAVE to DIE to sin in order to be ALIVE to God. Baptism is how we die to sin (Romans 6: 6,7) and through that death we are made ALIVE to God through Christ Jesus (Romans 6:11) - being reborn! It is those who are reborn, dead to sin and alive to God through Christ, are the ones who will have their sins forgiven by the blood of Christ. The waters of baptism do NOT forgive our sins, but it is FOR the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38). The blood of Christ cleanses us of all sin, but ONLY if we do what we are commanded to do FOR the remission of those sins - BAPTISM! (Acts 2:38, Romans 6:7). Christ commanded baptism in Matt. 28: 19,20.

To reiterate what 2 Tim 2:11 says, which is a conditional verse, if we want to live with Christ, we must also die with Christ, and the Bible clearly speaks on the matter of how one dies with Christ - Baptism.

HOW?

By obeying the gospel, just as the believers did in Acts 2:38.

For that you must go to the book of ROMANS there is not enough space to do it here and Paul does it more CLEARLY than I could.

How ironic that you say the answer is in the book of Romans. Ever read chapter 6?

But in effect God "condemned SIN in teh flesh" and has ALREADY judged it on CALVARY.
"fOR HE WHO KNEW NO SIN BECAME SIN THAT WE THROUGH HIM MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTOUSNESS OF GOD"

Indeed! That "we through Him might become the righteous of God". I'm not agrueing at all that it is through Him that salvation is possible. Not at all. But I am arguing that in oder to find salvation through Him, we must be reborn, just as He said. It is through Him that we have our sins forgiven, but only if we do that which He commanded FOR the remission of our sins - baptism.

It is through baptism that we put on Christ, thus, being in Christ (Gal. 3:27). Those who are in Christ have no condemnation (Romans 8:1). But if we want to live with Christ, we must also die with Christ (2 Tim. 2:11)! For how can we live with Christ if our old man of sin hasn't been crucified through baptism (Romans 6:6)? How can one live in Spirit and in sin at the same time? It's impossible. A death must occur that a new life may begin. The man of sin MUST die before we can walk in the Spirit.

So again, I have Biblical evidence to show that it is through baptism that we die with Christ. I challenge you, or anybody else to show me another Biblical means by which we die with Christ.

THEREFORE this body of sin was crucyfied WITH Him for IN Him the END OF ALL FLESH has come. and because the Law WAS FULLFILLED IN HIM and FOR us. we are through FAITH in THAT WORK of God;reconciled.

Christ's body was crucified that we may have our sins forgiven. But that doesn't mean that everybody's sins were automatically forgiven, or else EVERYBODY will make it to heaven! That's not gonna happen. Therefore, we must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) so that His blood covers our sins. It is those who obey Him are the ones who will be saved (Heb 5:9). If we ignore His command of baptism for the remission of our sins, how can one have their sins forgiven? Remember, it is he who has died who is freed from sin (Romans 6:7).

And by the way, baptism in His name is NOT part of the Mosaic Law. People were being baptized in His name after His crucifixion, after the time of the Mosaic Law.

Now your question was how we can DIE WITH Christ save through baptism?

Yup!

Now as Christ DIED 2000 YEARS AGO your or mine baptism CANNOT do THAT work for it has ALREADY BEEN DONE!

You obviously mistunderstand the purpose of baptism. The purpose of baptism is not to crucify Christ every time it is occured, but rather it is so that our man of sin may be done away with, that we should not longer be slaves to sin, thus being FREED from sin (Romans 6:6,7), thus being ALIVE to God (Romans 6:11).

The work of Christ was to crucified, that His blood would forgive our sins. Baptism does NOT to do the work of Christ! Baptism is the means set up by God that we must do FOR the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38) BY the work of His Son through His blood! There is a distinction there.

For FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE of things UNSEEN the evidence of things HOPED FOR"
Therefore our FAITH ahs by the UNDERSTANDING of the GOSPEL been put in GODS WORK on calvary.

Yes, and we many examples of people with this faith and obey the gospel by being baptized for the remission of their sins. The apostles were commanded by Christ to go out to all the nations, preaching the gospel, baptizing people in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things that Christ had commanded of them (and He JUST commanded baptism), and lo, Christ would be with them always (Matt. 28:19-20). This is exactly what the apostles did. They went out and preached the gospel and baptized those who believed, just as their Lord commanded. Those who believed were baptized for the remission of their sins... they had obey the gospel.

Tell me, when the believers in Acts 2, when they asked Peter what they must do to be saved, and Peter told them to repent and let every one of them be baptized for the remission of their sins, if they just sat their and believed - not obeying the command of baptism - would those people have obeyed the gospel? I think not! Think about it, Peter told them to repent and be baptized in response to the Jew's question on how be saved. Can you imagine them just sitting there and believing? What would their faith profit them? Nothing, for they would have ignored what Christ had commanded for the remission of their sins. As JustAChristian says, the faith that saves is the faith that obeys (Heb. 5:9). Those people had true faith, for they obeyed the command of baptism and were added to the church (Acts 2:41).

AND IN HIM who is the SECOND and LAST Adam a new CREATION in Him

And you can't have a new creation in Christ without first doing away with the first creation, can you? Gotta be reborn... it is then, and only then that you are a new creation in Christ, for you have put away your old man of sin.

and it is our FAITH in THAT work THAT RECONCILES US TO GOD!

Agreed! The Jews at Pentacost were saved by their faith in what Peter preached to them. Peter preached it, they believed it, and they obeyed it. Their faith in what Peter preached to them led to them to obey Peter's command of baptism. Peter commanded baptism because Christ commanded baptism (Matt 28:19, 20) It is those who are obedient who will be saved (Heb. 5:9). Does a person who has faith, but does not obey Him, do they really have faith? No. They are LIARS, and the truth is not in them (1John 2:4).

there fore we are SAVED by GRACE not of WORKS(ours) LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

Actually we are saved by grace through faith. And it is NOT the faith that is empty with lazyness and disobedient, but rather, the faith that saves is the faith that leads to obedience. We obey NOT to "EARN" our salvation, but because we have a genuine love for our God. When you truly love somebody, you WANT to please them. The same goes for Christ... for if we truly love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15), because we want to please Him. We know we are His if we keep His commandments (1John:3-6). As it says, truly, the love of God is perfected in him. I love my God very much, therefore I desire to please Him, because I love Him. I please Him by keeping His commandments. And it is those who do His commandments who will have rights to the tree of life (Rev. 22: 14), because it is those people who truly love God. Amen.

The grace is the fact that God sent His Son to die for us, so that we might be saved, even though we are totally unworthy of salvation. But He did it anyway, out of His abundant grace and love. But that grace only extends to those who believe and obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

and even as those in the OLD TESTAMENT looked FORWARDS by faith to the SAME END as we who look BACKWARDS IN FAITH.

Yes, again, faith is key. But tell me something, what good would Noah's faith in God do him if he didn't obey God and build that ark. What if he sat on his behind and believed in God. What good would his faith have been?

And in the same, what good is our faith if it doesn't have obedience?

HAVING by THAT FAITH RECIVED THAT WHICH GOD BY GRACE WORKED THEN AND NOW IN US.

Faith works in us, not grace. We are saved by grace through faith, and I've already explained what it is to have faith that saves, and how we are saved by the grace of God.

has ALREADY saved us "and through faith "ARE crucyfied WITH Christ...."

Can you show me the scripture that says that we are crucified with Christ through faith? I've shown that it is through baptism that we are crucified with Christ, buried with Him into death:

Romans 6:3-4
3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death (which is through baptism), certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Verse 4 makes it quite clear that we die with Christ through baptism, not faith. It does NOT say that "we were buried with Him through faith into death"... no... its says baptism. True faith will lead a person to baptism, which is how we are buried with Christ, but faith in itself is dead without obedience (James 2:17), and certainly does not bury us with Christ.

Baptism is also what "crucifies" us with Christ (verse 6). Where's your scripture to support your arguement that faith crucifies/let us die with Christ?

has ALREADY saved us "and through faith "ARE crucyfied WITH Christ...."

Explain to me how somebody is supposedly saved before they crucified their old man of sin. Baptism is how we crucify the man of sin, no longer being slaves to sin. (Romans 6:6). How is one saved when they are alive to sin and dead to God?

Therefoe BAPTISM in water is the SUBMISSION of the BODY what the HEART has ALREADY submitted to by FAITH.

Not quite. Baptism occurs when an obedient, contrite heart submits to God and His word, not submission of ones physical body. When the heart submits to God, if it tue submission, the believer will submit to the God-given command of baptism FOR the remission of their sins BY the blood of Jesus Christ. There is example after example of this in the Bible.

First the INWARD then the OUTWARD MANIFESTATION!

Yes, there must be belief in the heart first. Without that, one will never reach the point of baptism.

Therefore the WORK OF RIGHTOUSNESS is NOT unto salvation BUT conformity to that WILL OF GOD which before was not to our nature BUT NOW A SNEW CREATURES IS TO OUR JOY.

Is not the will of God for people to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins? Yes indeed, for it was commanded, and we have example after example of this command being followed. How can you "conform" to the will of God without obedience to His commandments? Those who do not do His commandments are not His, they are, in fact, liars (1John 2:3-6).

AND SO we present our bodies aliving sacrafice unto God which is our reasonable service"

But if we haven't obeyed the commandment of baptism, what have we sacrificed before God? Certainly not our old man of sin, for it is through baptism that he is crucified (Romans 6:6)! If we haven't crucified the old man of sin, we are still living in sin, and we are therefore shameful before God, not a living sacrifice.

Therefore we are NOT saved by our baptism to make us rightous.

Baptism doesn't save us by itself, no, but it does play a role in our salvation. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. That's why Jesus included both of these requirements in Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved.

but it is the OUTWORKING of that rightousness WHICH WE ARE NOW fullfilling/
"the law of ChrisT"

The Law of Christ is the law of faith. I've alreadly explained what kind of faith saves.

For even as He was baptised IN WATER we in COMFORMITY to the image of His Son,FOLOW.

Christ was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He did it to show submission and obedience to His Father. And yes, we are to learn from His example.

But none of this changes the fact that baptism is for the remission of sins, for even John the Baptist recognized this and questioned Christ.

Once Christ died and salvation was brought to the world, He instituted a means by which mankind can have their sins forgiven - baptism in His name. He commanded it, and there is ample proof that it's for the remission of sins, and His command was carried out in multiple examples in the Bible.

For He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.

Yes, He is... but only to those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9) Those who claim to know Him, and don't keep His commandments are liars (1 John 2:4).

sO ILL REPEAT..

WATER BAPTISM is the CONFORMITY of the BODY to that which has been ALREADY wrought in the HEART and it is the WILLING SUBMISSION (AS IT WAS HIS) to the will of the FATHER being now sons.

I'll repeat also:

Not quite. Baptism occurs when an obedient, contrite heart submits to God and His word, not submission of ones physical body. When the heart submits to God, if it tue submission, the believer will submit to the God-given command of baptism FOR the remission of their sins BY the blood of Jesus Christ. There is example after example of this in the Bible.

To anyone else who is reading this thread and wondering what it takes to be saved, well, about 2000 years ago, some Jews asked the same question. And Peter, being inspired of the Holy Spirit told them:

Acts 2:38
38) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Also, heed the words of Christ:

Mark 16:16
16) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

God bless you all.

P.S. - My challenge remains (to those who don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation)! Show me in the Bible where we can die with Christ by means other than baptism.

 

[la rubia]

*la rubia jumps up and applauds*
BRAVO! BRA- VO!
EXCELLENT post, Kevin. I think I just shed a tear, it was beautiful. *wink*

 

[Kevin]

The test wasn't meant for you, friend.

The test wasn't meant for you, friend.

Francisco,

Kevin,

I didn't previously resond because you and I are of the same mind on this issue.

Sorry, I should have clarified. My challenge goes out to those who don't think that baptism is necessary for salvation.

 

[Kevin]

la rubia,

Thank you so much for taking the time to read it. And thank very, very much for your warm words of love. God bless you, sister.

 

[geralduk]

Kevin.
The ONLY thing we must do in 'obedience' is REPENT which again is NO work of the flesh.
But you fail to realise the basic premise" that in our FLESH there is NO good thng"
So what can this sinfull flesh do that is pleasin gto God accept tpo die?
Now you say that this work of baptism MAKES us die in Christ
But this is FALSE.
fOR THE law sAYS that the soul that sinneth shal die.
So baptism CANNOT put us to death.
ONLY the CROSS can do that.
and therefore it is by FAITH believing i the "FINSHED" WORK of calvary that we are "CRUCYFIED WITH Christ."
Therefore with the HEART man beliveth and with the mouth confession is made unto salavtion.
THAT is what it means that you must be baptised to be saved.
Its A CONFESSION to the WORLD THE FLESH AND THE DEVIL of what God has ALREADY ROUGHT in your heart which you believe.
and you are now conforming your body to that which you believe.
BE ye baptised IS a commandment and ALL christians should be so baptised.
But you wish to ADD your own work to Gods.
But PAUL says "w eare to REST FROM OUR LABOURS EVEN AS gOD DID FROM HIS"
HAT YOU ARE ADVOCATING IS NO DIFFETRENT TO THOSE IN PAULS DAY who demanded that we be curcumcised which wa salso comanded to be done.
Enoiugh has been said on it.
So let the rightous be rightous and the unrightous remain unrightous.

 

[Kevin]

geralduk,

The ONLY thing we must do in 'obedience' is REPENT which again is NO work of the flesh.

True repentance brings obedience. If one supposedly repents, but does not crucify the old man of sin by baptism, has that person truly repented? No.

You say that repentance is the 'only' thing that we need to do, but the apostle Peter disagress with you. He told sinners who were looking to be saved to repent AND be baptized for the remission of their sins. If you want to ignore that, then that's on you.

But you fail to realise the basic premise" that in our FLESH there is NO good thng"

You are incorrect in your assertion. In fact, it's ironic that you would say that to me. On the contrary, I'm quite aware that there is NO good thing about living in the flesh, which is why I'm preaching so adamantly that one needs to die with Christ through baptism SO THAT THEY ARE NO LONGER LIVING IN THE FLESH!. When they die with Christ through baptism, they are no longer living in the flesh, but rather in the Spirit, and they are ALIVE to God (Romans 6:11).

So what can this sinfull flesh do that is pleasin gto God accept tpo die?

The sinful flesh can please God by repenting of their sins and obeying what was commanded for the remission of their sins - baptism. Are you trying to tell me that God would not be pleased with one who comes into obedience to Him? In fact, after the eunuch was baptized in Acts 8, he went on his way rejoicing (Acts 8:39). Why was he rejoicing? Because Jesus was preached to him (Acts 8:35), he believed (verse 37), and he was baptised for the remission of sins (verse 38,39), thus being ALIVE to God!! Was God pleased with him? You bet He was, for the eunuch had heard, believed, and obyed the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Now you say that this work of baptism MAKES us die in Christ
But this is FALSE.

What?! :doh: It is the word of God which says that we die with Christ through baptism:

Romans 6:3-4
3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Question: Who are the ones who are baptized into Christ's death? Answer: "As many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus". Plain and simple.

4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Who is buried with Him? WE are. Through what means are WE buried with Him? "Through baptism" - I increased the font size to make SURE that you didn't miss that. So, "WE" are buried with "HIM" through "BAPTISM" into what? Into "DEATH".

The word of God is plain, and it says that it is through BAPTISM that we die with Him, yet you want to say that we dont' die in Him through baptism. I'll take the words of the apostle Paul over your unbiblical assertion anyday.

fOR THE law sAYS that the soul that sinneth shal die.
So baptism CANNOT put us to death.

Yes, the soul that sinneth shall die!!! That's why I'm trying to show you that one must be baptized for the remission of their sins! They are NO longer slaves of sin after being baptized (Romans 6:6)

As for baptism not putting us to death - see my comments above.

ONLY the CROSS can do that.

The blood of Christ will do NO good to a person that does not do what is commanded FOR the remission of their sins. It only covers those who hear, believe, and obey the gospel as the Jews did in Acts 2:38. It is he who has died who is free from sin, and I've made it quite clear how one dies with Christ.

and therefore it is by FAITH believing i the "FINSHED" WORK of calvary that we are "CRUCYFIED WITH Christ."

What good is faith if it doesn't inlcude obediene? Did Peter tell the Jews to just have faith and they will be saved? NOPE. Not at all. It was their faith that led them to baptism for the remission of their sins. That is the faith that saves, for it is the faith that obeys.

Therefore with the HEART man beliveth and with the mouth confession is made unto salavtion.

Yes, and your point? Are you trying to use an arguement of omission here, that it says nothing about baptism? Well, is not the blood of Christ CRUCIAL for our salvation? Yes. Well, I could go to Eph. 2:8 where it talks about being saved by grace through faith. Well, NOTHING is mentioned in that verse about the blood of Jesus. NOTHING is mentioned about repentance either. By your logic, Christ's blood and repentance are not necessary for salvation because it mentions neither of those in Eph. 2:8, which is speaking about salvation. You can just look at that ONE verse and so oh, I'll just sit here and have my faith in God, but continue in my ways of sin, not realizing that one MUST DIE with Christ in order to LIVE with Christ (2 Tim. 2:11).

However, when you take the whole counsel of God into consideration, nothing is left out. The plan of salvation is quite clear.

We have a perfect example of your reference to believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth unto salavtion. It's in Acts 8:34-39 - the conversion of the eunuch. He believed in his heart, he confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and YES, he was BAPTIZED. Did Philip tell him to ONLY believe and confess with the mouth? NO! For when the eunuch saw water, he asked Philip, "What hinders me from being baptized?" Now why would the eunuch ask that unless Philip, who preached Jesus to him, told him about baptism? The fact is, the eunuch believed in the heart, confessed with his mouth, and was baptized for the remission of his sins - a perfect biblical example of one being converted by believing and confessing - and it INCLUDED baptism! To try and omit what our Lord commanded for salvation (Mark 16:16) is NOT very wise at all. Arguements of omission does not hold up to the word of God.

And another thing, it was Paul who wrote what you referenced. Would Paul dare go against His Lord's commandment and not have them baptized? No way. Paul knew how important baptism was, which is why he himself wrote extensively about it in Romans 6. Don't you think that he would PRACTICE what he PREACHED?

THAT is what it means that you must be baptised to be saved.

Wrong. We have a clear Biblical example of what it means to be baptized, and it's not believing with the heart or confessing with the mouth. The conversion of the eunuch in Acts 8 seperates believing with the heart, confessing with the mouth, and yes, being baptized. In verses 38-39, the eunuch was baptized with water for the remission of his sins, and that's what it means to be baptized to be saved. Believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth is NOT baptism. The eunuch knew what baptism was, for he asked in verse 36 "See, here is WATER, what hinders me from being baptized?"

Its A CONFESSION to the WORLD THE FLESH AND THE DEVIL of what God has ALREADY ROUGHT in your heart which you believe.

Nope. Wrong. The eunuch had already confessed Christ to Philip BEFORE he was baptized. What, did he need to confess after already confessing? Makes no sense. There is NO Biblical support that baptism is some kind of outward declaration or show of faith for other Christians. That is a man-made lie that has found it's way into the Lord's church.

The Biblical definition of baptism can be found in Romans 6: 1-11, and it's FAR different from the lies of man. You're trying to say that somebody is saved before baptism, but the BIBLE says that it is HE WHO HAS DIED, who is free from sin (Romans 6:7). That's conditional. And I've shown that it is through baptism that we die to sin. I've shown it over and over, and you can't refute it. I'm still waiting for your verse that shows that we die with Christ by means other than baptism. But anyway, until one has died, being freed from sin, they are NOT saved, because they are still in their sins. You must die with Christ to live with Christ (2 Tim. 2:11). Plain and simple.

BE ye baptised IS a commandment and ALL christians should be so baptised.

A person is not a Christian until they have put on Christ through baptism (Gal. 3:27). Then they are a Christian, for they are in Christ, having their sins forgiven by His blood through the obedience of baptism.

So you agree that baptism is commanded and should be done, but why? Back it with scriputre.

But you wish to ADD your own work to Gods.

Um, I'm not adding anything. Christ commanded it, therfore it is to be obeyed. When one understands the purpose of baptism, then that person will understand why Christ commanded it. Christ is the One who included baptism in the plan of salvation (Mark 16:16), not me. I add nothing.

But PAUL says "w eare to REST FROM OUR LABOURS EVEN AS gOD DID FROM HIS"

Being baptized is hardly a "labor". What's your point? Scriptual reference would be nice.

HAT YOU ARE ADVOCATING IS NO DIFFETRENT TO THOSE IN PAULS DAY who demanded that we be curcumcised which wa salso comanded to be done.

Um, there's a slight problem with your arguement here. The Galatians were attempting to keep the old law by forcing Christians to beomce circumsized in the flesh. Christ commanded circumsision of the heart, not of the circumsision flesh - which is exactly what was trying to be taught to the Christians. That's why Paul was rebuking them... for Christ did NOT command the circumsision of the flesh. Christ DID however command baptism, and Paul, who was rebuking the Galatians for the attempt to go back to the old law of physical circumsision told those very poeple in Gal 3:27 that "as many as you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." The teaching of circumsision of the flesh is NOT part of the gospel, but baptism in Christ's name IS part of that gospel, for Christ commanded it to be so (Matt 28:19-20, Mark 16:16).

Enoiugh has been said on it.

Indeed. He who has ears, let him hear!