The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Francisco]

JustAChristian,

I am in substantial agreement with your beliefs on baptism and many other theological issues discussed at TOL, but I must point out a couple of things you said about Catholic beliefs that just are not true.

First, I won't try to explain what Calvinists think since I'm not a Calvinist, but I can assure you Catholics don't believe we are 'born sinners' in the sense you seem to mean. Catholics believe you can't commit actual sin until you are capable of understanding that you are committing sin. Nor do we believe anyone is predestined to a life of sin.

On the other hand, even today we are all born with the stain of the original sin. We all must die, women give birth in pain, man still toils to make the earth produce the food we eat, etc... These were all punishments that God gave mankind based on Adam and Eve's sin, the Original Sin. All these 'effects' of original sin still persist within all humans, from generation to generation.

Second, there is no such thing as the 'immaculate conception of Christ'. The term is the 'Immaculate Conception', and it refers only to Mary, Christ's mother.

Third, the Catholic belief is not that Mary was just born without sin. The belief is basically that God, in His foreknowledge that Mary would bear The Word in the flesh, saved Mary's soul from the moment of her conception based on the promise of the Redemption of all mankind through the saving merits of Jesus Christ. God saved Mary's soul from the moment of her conception for many reasons, I'm sure, but I believe the primary reason was to fulfill the promise He made in Genesis 3:15 -

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at His heel.

It's obvious here God is speaking of Mary, whose offspring would be Christ Jesus, and God is promising from the beginning of time that he would 'put enmity' between Mary (the woman) and Satan. That means that God would make them diametrically opposed to each other. Catholics believe that God saved Mary's soul from the moment of conception to create that enmity or total opposition between Mary and Satan. If Mary had been born with the effects of the original sin still on her soul, she would not have enmity between herself and Satan. In fact, she would have been in at least partial cooperation with Satan, as all humans are through our sinfulness. And cooperation, even in the slightest degree, is the exact opposite of enmity. That would make God out to be a liar, and we know God is not a liar.

It would also make sense that, because Jesus knew who His mother would be from the beginning of time, He would certainly do for His mother more than you and I could ever imagine doing for our mothers. And I would think if you love your mother as much as I love mine, you could imagine doing some pretty awesome things for your mother. Jesus only has to will something to make it happen, and He had the power to will His mother to be saved from the moment of Her conception. Why wouldn't Jesus do that for His mother, particularly in consideration of the INFINITE love Jesus has for His mother in contrast with the finite love we have for ours?

Also, we consider that Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ. The OT type of Mary was the 'Ark of the Covenant'. God instructed that all the materials be pure, of the highest standard, acacia wood, with exact dimensions and measurements. God went to considerable detail describing the Ark and commanding perfection. Consider, if God was so demanding about the purity and perfection of the physical dwelling place for some tablets of stone on which he carved the commandments, how much more demanding would He be about the physical dwelling of His own Son, the Living Word, the Word made flesh?

It doesn't seem surprising at all that an all-knowing, all-loving God would prepare the finest portal for His Son's entry into the world of mankind. In fact, it seems surprising to me that any Christian would be surprised at God's love for Mary.

Please don't take any of this as a 'rebuke', but merely an explanation to straighten out a misunderstanding. And I thank you for providing the opportunity for me to offer this explanation. Also, keep up the good work on this thread.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[c.moore]

Re: Why Are We Compelled To "Be Born" Again?

Re: Why Are We Compelled To "Be Born" Again?

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Since Jesus says we must be born again, then there must be something wrong with our first birth. The thing wrong with the “first birth” is that “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “As it is written, ‘There is none righteous, no not one’” (Rom. 3:10). “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s Book of life” (Rev 21:27). He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father and before His angels (Rev 3:5).

Nicodemus needed to be reborn because his physical life was not sufficient to gain heaven’s domain. Like everyone who lives on the earth, he was commanded to be born of the water and the Spirit. Without this one cannot enter heaven. This is done when one “...obey (s) from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you” (Rom. 6:17). What is the form of doctrine which was delivered you? It is the gospel. This is all that the apostles delivered unto salvation (Rom 1:16). Therefore to obey the gospel is to be born again (Hebrews 5:8-9). Jesus told the apostles “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel (the good news of God’s salvation, justification and glorification (grace) to every creature; he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned” (Mark 16:15-16).

David was born into a world riddled with sin. No one is born a sinner as the Calvinist and Catholics teach, because the Bible plainly teaches that “...the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” - not infancy (Gen 8:21). Man is not born evil but digresses at an early age. The Catholics tried to dodge this issue by teaching the unscriptural doctrine of the immaculate conception of Christ. They taught that Mary was born “immaculate” meaning that she did not inherit sin so Jesus would not be born with sin. But this is a “wresting of the scriptures to their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).

Why didn't David recognize his need to be born again? It was because this concept was never preached by any prophet before Jesus (John 1:17). Those under the preaching of the OLD Testament prophets and the law were to be in obedient to the law. This did not save them, but their righteousness is observed in their faith (see Hebrews 11 for the family of faith), and the blood of Christ covers them (Heb. 9:15). Jesus requires a new nature called “the new birth” under the NEW Testament. “Whosoever will can partake of the waters of life”, not just a predetermined number that is numbered by God. God gives man free will and he must exercise it in obedience of faith (Rom 1:5).

Holy Spirit baptism was not possible to bury the old man of sin. We are to bury the old man of sin. The old man of sin is buried in water baptism Since baptism by immersion is essential to the burial of the old man of sin. And since the old man of sin cannot enter into heaven, therefore, it is essential that one be baptized in water in order to enter heaven. If not, why not? “He that beleveth” excludes babies. Babies are “safe” until they know that they have sinned. It is essential to repent, but the concept of repentance comes at an age of understanding.

JustAChristian

I see you mention Rev 3:5 but i think the church in Rev3:7 was a faithful Holy church, and they kept His words, and God will keep us from evil and temptations, but we should keep working only because of our rewards or crown according to verse 11, and in verse 12 , is the person who doesn`t give up believeing and having faith in Jesus, and A relationship with HIM.
We can`t earn salvation, it is A choice and decision in your heart, not in some wet water.

We can only obey when we have the Holy Spirit in us to help us to obey, but we have to learn or have the instructions how to walk and live so we need to be born of Water which is God`s Words so we can be directed to do God`s will and getting in some wet water can`t guide us or teach us anything how to do God`s will according to Joh:3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Our God is A Spirit, and what`s important to God the spiritual things, even we are spirit beings, and even the world was created by the unseen, which is the spoken words.

flesh and spirit is two different things and worlds, and my God lives in the Spiritual world where there is Glory, and powers.

faith is what moves God not flesh works, but we do things after our faith is motivated .

When I was a baby christian I thought John 3:5 was talking about water baptism untill i found reference verses, and found out the truth, and as long as somebody don`t want to change and get the right understanding they can create thier own doctrine and religion pridefully and I think this is happening with you JAC.

Francisco, I would like to say mary was just A will vessel, and A loving mother who let God use Her for His will to be done , but I know God has no respect of person, also thier is no male and female by God kingdom we are all the same, and no body is better than the other, thank God we have A just GOD.
i do respect mary, but not to ever worship her, just like I really respect Paul but i don`t worship him either even though he wrote most of the new testament.
I beleive the scripture JAC quoted All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “As it is written, ‘There is none righteous, no not one’” (Rom. 3:10).

Notice the verse say all not some, or except virgin Mary, all have sinned pass tence with an ED at the end of sinned.

Also none is righteous not even Mary unless the bible lies.

i think I said enough for now

peace

 

[geralduk]

Though in agreement that WATER baptismis NOT required for salvation.
Yet EVERY true born again childof God SHOULD be baptised.
Jusr because some in ERROR proposea baptism of WORKS unto salvation.
Does not mean that BAPTISM unto rightousness should then be avoided!
For the first is not of faith but of WORKS.
The second is in acordance to THAT faith in God whos WORK was COMPLETED on CALVARY.
A true baptism then is an ACT of faith which is the substance of that which has been wrought UNSEEN in the heart and is now MANIFESTED to the world in conformity to that faith and is EVIDENCE of that which is hoped for.
For in TRUTH all true born again children of God "ARE crucyfied WITH Christ"
and are therefore to "COUNT ourselves DEAD to sin"
Now if GOD "condemned sin in the flesh" and JUDGED SIN in Christ.
"For He who knew no sin,became sin........"Therefore sin is ALREADY judged.
Sowe are to COUNT ourselves DEAD......to sin.because we IN Christ were crucyfied WITH Him.
and sothe oldman is DEAD through CHRIST.
Therefore when we submitour bodies to BAPTISM we are laying the FOUNDATIONS of that ACT of "submitting our bodies as a living sacrafice unto God which is our reasonable service"
and conforming our bodies THROUGH faith into that DEATHand BURIAL which God ACCOMPLISHED.
so that as we do so "we are raised TOGETHER also WITH Christ"in newness of life.
here then we shouldalsolook to our first BAPTISM of the Spirit even as it waswith Christ.
For did He not say "as the FATHER SENT ME so send I YOU?!
Therefore if He was willing to be so SUBMITTED to the WILL of Godand the fullfillment of all rightousness.
Why is it thought we go another way?
bUT IN TRUTH HAVE ALSO TO GO THE SAME WAY.
If we do not we ROB ourselves and God.
OURSELVES because we are not walking PERFECTLY before the Lordand so missthat blessing which comes from doing so.
and God because we have not OPENLY honoured Himwith our bodies.
So though we donot need to get baptised to be saved.
Once saved we should do so not long after.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by geralduk
Though in agreement that WATER baptismis NOT required for salvation.
Yet EVERY true born again childof God SHOULD be baptised.
Jusr because some in ERROR proposea baptism of WORKS unto salvation.
Does not mean that BAPTISM unto rightousness should then be avoided!
For the first is not of faith but of WORKS.
The second is in acordance to THAT faith in God whos WORK was COMPLETED on CALVARY.
A true baptism then is an ACT of faith which is the substance of that which has been wrought UNSEEN in the heart and is now MANIFESTED to the world in conformity to that faith and is EVIDENCE of that which is hoped for.
For in TRUTH all true born again children of God "ARE crucyfied WITH Christ"
and are therefore to "COUNT ourselves DEAD to sin"
Now if GOD "condemned sin in the flesh" and JUDGED SIN in Christ.
"For He who knew no sin,became sin........"Therefore sin is ALREADY judged.
Sowe are to COUNT ourselves DEAD......to sin.because we IN Christ were crucyfied WITH Him.
and sothe oldman is DEAD through CHRIST.
Therefore when we submitour bodies to BAPTISM we are laying the FOUNDATIONS of that ACT of "submitting our bodies as a living sacrafice unto God which is our reasonable service"
and conforming our bodies THROUGH faith into that DEATHand BURIAL which God ACCOMPLISHED.
so that as we do so "we are raised TOGETHER also WITH Christ"in newness of life.
here then we shouldalsolook to our first BAPTISM of the Spirit even as it waswith Christ.
For did He not say "as the FATHER SENT ME so send I YOU?!
Therefore if He was willing to be so SUBMITTED to the WILL of Godand the fullfillment of all rightousness.
Why is it thought we go another way?
bUT IN TRUTH HAVE ALSO TO GO THE SAME WAY.
If we do not we ROB ourselves and God.
OURSELVES because we are not walking PERFECTLY before the Lordand so missthat blessing which comes from doing so.
and God because we have not OPENLY honoured Himwith our bodies.
So though we donot need to get baptised to be saved.
Once saved we should do so not long after.

very good post my friend, and I agree whole hearted with you and I pray that others can understand the water baptismo ceromony the same way.
i`ve been water baptized three times so i like the baptism, and i practise it.

God bless you:thumb:

 

[JustAChristian]

Commenting on Francisco's Post...

Commenting on Francisco's Post...

Originally posted by Francisco
JustAChristian,

I am in substantial agreement with your beliefs on baptism and many other theological issues discussed at TOL, but I must point out a couple of things you said about Catholic beliefs that just are not true.

First, I won't try to explain what Calvinists think since I'm not a Calvinist, but I can assure you Catholics don't believe we are 'born sinners' in the sense you seem to mean. Catholics believe you can't commit actual sin until you are capable of understanding that you are committing sin. Nor do we believe anyone is predestined to a life of sin.

On the other hand, even today we are all born with the stain of the original sin. We all must die, women give birth in pain, man still toils to make the earth produce the food we eat, etc... These were all punishments that God gave mankind based on Adam and Eve's sin, the Original Sin. All these 'effects' of original sin still persist within all humans, from generation to generation.

Second, there is no such thing as the 'immaculate conception of Christ'. The term is the 'Immaculate Conception', and it refers only to Mary, Christ's mother.

Third, the Catholic belief is not that Mary was just born without sin. The belief is basically that God, in His foreknowledge that Mary would bear The Word in the flesh, saved Mary's soul from the moment of her conception based on the promise of the Redemption of all mankind through the saving merits of Jesus Christ. God saved Mary's soul from the moment of her conception for many reasons, I'm sure, but I believe the primary reason was to fulfill the promise He made in Genesis 3:15 -

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at His heel.

It's obvious here God is speaking of Mary, whose offspring would be Christ Jesus, and God is promising from the beginning of time that he would 'put enmity' between Mary (the woman) and Satan. That means that God would make them diametrically opposed to each other. Catholics believe that God saved Mary's soul from the moment of conception to create that enmity or total opposition between Mary and Satan. If Mary had been born with the effects of the original sin still on her soul, she would not have enmity between herself and Satan. In fact, she would have been in at least partial cooperation with Satan, as all humans are through our sinfulness. And cooperation, even in the slightest degree, is the exact opposite of enmity. That would make God out to be a liar, and we know God is not a liar.

It would also make sense that, because Jesus knew who His mother would be from the beginning of time, He would certainly do for His mother more than you and I could ever imagine doing for our mothers. And I would think if you love your mother as much as I love mine, you could imagine doing some pretty awesome things for your mother. Jesus only has to will something to make it happen, and He had the power to will His mother to be saved from the moment of Her conception. Why wouldn't Jesus do that for His mother, particularly in consideration of the INFINITE love Jesus has for His mother in contrast with the finite love we have for ours?

Also, we consider that Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ. The OT type of Mary was the 'Ark of the Covenant'. God instructed that all the materials be pure, of the highest standard, acacia wood, with exact dimensions and measurements. God went to considerable detail describing the Ark and commanding perfection. Consider, if God was so demanding about the purity and perfection of the physical dwelling place for some tablets of stone on which he carved the commandments, how much more demanding would He be about the physical dwelling of His own Son, the Living Word, the Word made flesh?

It doesn't seem surprising at all that an all-knowing, all-loving God would prepare the finest portal for His Son's entry into the world of mankind. In fact, it seems surprising to me that any Christian would be surprised at God's love for Mary.

Please don't take any of this as a 'rebuke', but merely an explanation to straighten out a misunderstanding. And I thank you for providing the opportunity for me to offer this explanation. Also, keep up the good work on this thread.

God Bless,

Francisco

Francisco,

You said: "First, I won't try to explain what Calvinists think since I'm not a Calvinist, but I can assure you Catholics don't believe we are 'born sinners' in the sense you seem to mean. Catholics believe you can't commit actual sin until you are capable of understanding that you are committing sin. Nor do we believe anyone is predestined to a life of sin." This is a common doctrine of the Catholic church. I am surprised that you did not know it. One church historian tells us: "Pius IX (1792-1878), who occupied the papal chair between 1846 and 1878, did not lose any opportunities to strengthen the Roman Catholic church. In 1854, in Ineffabilis Deus, after consultation with bishops of the church, Pius proclaimed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, that is, that Mary was conceived without "any taint of original sin." All the faithful were henceforth to accept this doctrine as a part of the dogma of the roman Catholic church that one must believe in order to be saved." [Henry Bettenson,
Documents of the Christian Church, 2nd ed. (New York: Oxford University Press, 1963), pg 271]. This is a clear and precise teaching that man is born with original sin and is taught in the Catholic church. Though I have not read "Ineffabilis Deus" nor have known Betternson personally, until these statements are proven to be false, I will accept them at face value.

You said: "On the other hand, even today we are all born with the stain of the original sin. We all must die, women give birth in pain, man still toils to make the earth produce the food we eat, etc... These were all punishments that God gave mankind based on Adam and Eve's sin, the Original Sin. All these 'effects' of original sin still persist within all humans, from generation to generation." The bible tells us that we die, not because of Adam's sin, but because of our own sins: "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned"-- (Romans 5:12 ASV). You are correct to say that man is responsible to support himself based on physical labor, but man has always had the responsibility of physical labor: "And Jehovah God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it" (Genesis 2:15 ASV). Jehovah cursed the ground for man's sake and it became harder for man to survive because of man's sin, but has never forsaken the efforts of man to survive if he has been faithful in serving the Lord God (Psalms 37:25).

You said: "Second, there is no such thing as the 'immaculate conception of Christ'. The term is the 'Immaculate Conception', and it refers only to Mary, Christ's mother." Yes, I covered that earlier, but the doctrine of immaculate conception of Mary precursors the immaculate conception of Christ; that since Mary was born without original sin, so the virgin birth of Christ would be without the transmittal of original sin from his earthly mother Mary. This is only reason for the doctrine's purpose and extension.

Though it may seem a logical point to make, it clearly shows that God “is a respecter of persons.” It would show that God saves the soul of some separate and apart of faith, which is contrary to scripture (Acts 10:34-35). Mary was save by grace through faith like everyone else who is saved (Eph. 2:8-9).
It was in the foreknowledge of God to know the end of every action, but this does not prevent the free will of every person. If Mary had failed to comply with God’s call for her, He would have taken another route to bring Christ into the world. He would have chosen another virgin through which He would have performed His will. This is clearly shown, in parallel, by God’s statement to Moses when Israel failed to believe His deliverance (Exodus 32:9-10). There would have ceased to be a “Nation of Israel” in favor of a “Nation of Moses.” The prophesy of Genesis 3:15 would have eventually fulfilled regardless of Mary’s action.
Again, I believe that to be a totally false conclusion to take, that Jehovah worked independent of His will for all man in saving Mary’s soul apart from faith. God does not work with mankind in that fashion.

You have a compelling argument, of the “effects of original sin on the Mary’s soul” but such is not the case. The Bible tells us that “death” not “sin” passed to all man, for all have sinned (Romans 5:12) and thus show the facility of your argument. You may want to study more on the consequences and progression of sin in Ezekiel 18.

In your argument that "It would also make sense that, because Jesus knew who His mother would be from the beginning of time, He would certainly do for His mother more than you and I could ever imagine doing for our mothers," again, you beg for the question and prompt the Lord for the respect of persons. This is a deep facility of your argument.

You asked me: "Please don't take any of this as a 'rebuke', but merely an explanation to straighten out a misunderstanding. And I thank you for providing the opportunity for me to offer this explanation. Also, keep up the good work on this thread." Likewise, I hope you will consider my response to your argument. I believe my response is sound. I hope you will accept it as such.

In Christ,
JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Why Are We Compelled To "Be Born" Again?

Re: Re: Why Are We Compelled To "Be Born" Again?

Originally posted by c.moore


I see you mention Rev 3:5 but i think the church in Rev3:7 was a faithful Holy church, and they kept His words, and God will keep us from evil and temptations, but we should keep working only because of our rewards or crown according to verse 11, and in verse 12 , is the person who doesn`t give up believeing and having faith in Jesus, and A relationship with HIM.
We can`t earn salvation, it is A choice and decision in your heart, not in some wet water.

We can only obey when we have the Holy Spirit in us to help us to obey, but we have to learn or have the instructions how to walk and live so we need to be born of Water which is God`s Words so we can be directed to do God`s will and getting in some wet water can`t guide us or teach us anything how to do God`s will according to Joh:3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Our God is A Spirit, and what`s important to God the spiritual things, even we are spirit beings, and even the world was created by the unseen, which is the spoken words.

flesh and spirit is two different things and worlds, and my God lives in the Spiritual world where there is Glory, and powers.

faith is what moves God not flesh works, but we do things after our faith is motivated .

When I was a baby christian I thought John 3:5 was talking about water baptism untill i found reference verses, and found out the truth, and as long as somebody don`t want to change and get the right understanding they can create thier own doctrine and religion pridefully and I think this is happening with you JAC.

Francisco, I would like to say mary was just A will vessel, and A loving mother who let God use Her for His will to be done , but I know God has no respect of person, also thier is no male and female by God kingdom we are all the same, and no body is better than the other, thank God we have A just GOD.
i do respect mary, but not to ever worship her, just like I really respect Paul but i don`t worship him either even though he wrote most of the new testament.
I beleive the scripture JAC quoted All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “As it is written, ‘There is none righteous, no not one’” (Rom. 3:10).

Notice the verse say all not some, or except virgin Mary, all have sinned pass tence with an ED at the end of sinned.

Also none is righteous not even Mary unless the bible lies.

i think I said enough for now

peace

C. Moore,

Haven’t you been telling us all along that a Christian can’t lose their reward? You say God will keep us from evil and temptation, but it doesn’t matter because we are going to still get the reward if we keep on believing. Sounds like you want it both ways!!
What is it going to be? Are Christians going to keep their salvation and rewards no matter what they do in there Christian walk or are they conditional and subject to faithfulness on the part of the Christian? I know we can’t earn salvation. I think I told you that several times. Why do you keep bringing that up. Anyway, being baptized for the remission of sins in water is not earning salvation. It is obeying Christ (Heb. 5:8-9). Can’t you see the simplicity of that? Obeying is not earning! Obeying is not earning! Obeying is not earning! Obeying is not earning! Can’t you see that???????

You think the Holy Spirit makes you obey God. The Holy Spirit does not make you obey God! You do that based on if you want to do His will. He didn’t help Peter obey when he was showing favoritism to the Jewish brethren and Paul had to straighten him out (Gal. 2:11ff). You are misunderstanding the purpose of the Spirit of God. You need to be listening to the Spirit through the word and you want misunderstand Him. Jesus said, “Except a man be born of water and of Spirit” not a baby, but a man. Some people try to dodge this by saying the water there means natural birth. But, Jesus said a man ( or woman) must be born of water and of Spirit, meaning someone other than a baby. The word of God is able to instruct you in being born again. Are you listening?!!!

You said that we are spirit being like God. We are not spirit beings. We are physical beings. Don’t you know that the bible says a spirit does not have flesh and bones? (Luke 24:39).

God is persuaded to reward based on our faith in Him through Christ. Not obeying the command to be baptized is being unfaithful. Don’t you believe this?

You said that you believed John 3:5 meant water baptism until you found some reference verses. Where did you find those reference verses; in the footnotes of the Scofield Bible? C.moore, footnotes are scripture, and you can’t be saved by footnotes. It takes the word of God which says one must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

C.Moore, I pray that you will come to a fuller understanding of the bible and will quit depending on references verses and footnotes. Why don't you just accept what the bible says? It really is not that hard. God wants everyone to be saved (2 Peter 3:8-9), so it can't be all that hard to be. Keep searching, but not in the footnotes.

JustaChristian :thumb:

 

[Francisco]

Francisco,

You said: "First, I won't try to explain what Calvinists think since I'm not a Calvinist, but I can assure you Catholics don't believe we are 'born sinners' in the sense you seem to mean. Catholics believe you can't commit actual sin until you are capable of understanding that you are committing sin. Nor do we believe anyone is predestined to a life of sin." This is a common doctrine of the Catholic church. I am surprised that you did not know it. One church historian tells us: "Pius IX (1792-1878), who occupied the papal chair between 1846 and 1878, did not lose any opportunities to strengthen the Roman Catholic church. In 1854, in Ineffabilis Deus, after consultation with bishops of the church, Pius proclaimed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, that is, that Mary was conceived without "any taint of original sin." All the faithful were henceforth to accept this doctrine as a part of the dogma of the roman Catholic church that one must believe in order to be saved." [Henry Bettenson, Documents of the Christian Church, 2nd ed. (New York: Oxford University Press, 1963), pg 271]. This is a clear and precise teaching that man is born with original sin and is taught in the Catholic church. Though I have not read "Ineffabilis Deus" nor have known Betternson personally, until these statements are proven to be false, I will accept them at face value.

I don't understand how you can hold up a document that you've never read as rebuttal. Relying on someone else's interpretation of that is problematic at best, and you know it. For all you know Henry Bettenson is Freak's brother-in-law!

However, I went to some length to explain what 'taint of original sin' means, and it doesn't mean we are born with sins on our soul, nor does it mean some people are predestined toa life of sinfulness. The Cathechism of the Catholic Church says:

404. "How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam 'as one body of one man'. By this 'unity of the human race' all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called 'sin' only in an analogical sense: it is a sin 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act."

You said: "On the other hand, even today we are all born with the stain of the original sin. We all must die, women give birth in pain, man still toils to make the earth produce the food we eat, etc... These were all punishments that God gave mankind based on Adam and Eve's sin, the Original Sin. All these 'effects' of original sin still persist within all humans, from generation to generation." The bible tells us that we die, not because of Adam's sin, but because of our own sins: "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned"-- (Romans 5:12 ASV). You are correct to say that man is responsible to support himself based on physical labor, but man has always had the responsibility of physical labor: "And Jehovah God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it" (Genesis 2:15 ASV). Jehovah cursed the ground for man's sake and it became harder for man to survive because of man's sin, but has never forsaken the efforts of man to survive if he has been faithful in serving the Lord God (Psalms 37:25).

You need to read your own quote from Romans above. It says that sin entered through Adam, and death through sin. That means the penalty of death entered through Adam. The verse goes further to say that 'death passed unto all men', meaning the death that entered through Adams sin. Then Paul ends his thought 'for that all sinned' to preclude anyone from saying 'Adam made me do it', because we are all culpable.

Furthermore, the bible tells us very clearly that Adam's sin caused all mankind to suffer the penalties I listed above:

16 To the woman He said:
"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you."

17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, "You shall not eat of it':
"Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return."

You said above that man 'always had the responsibility of physical labor', but this is not true. You quoted Gen 2:15 to prove this 'physical labor', but the very next verse says 'And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;' There is a big difference between eating freely of the fruit trees God supplied and toiling to eat the herb of the field!

You said: "Second, there is no such thing as the 'immaculate conception of Christ'. The term is the 'Immaculate Conception', and it refers only to Mary, Christ's mother." Yes, I covered that earlier, but the doctrine of immaculate conception of Mary precursors the immaculate conception of Christ; that since Mary was born without original sin, so the virgin birth of Christ would be without the transmittal of original sin from his earthly mother Mary. This is only reason for the doctrine's purpose and extension.

Again, there is no Catholic doctrine called the 'Immaculate Conception of Christ'. You are confused on this issue. If you still don't believe me, go try to find any Catholic document that refers to this 'Immaculate Conception of Christ'. It's not there. The term used to describe the conception and birth of Jesus is 'The Incarnation'.

Secondly, please don't try to tell me why I believe something. I don't believe in the Immaculate Conception in order to protect the doctrine of Christ's sinless nature. Christ is the second person of God, the Word made flesh, and is sinless because God's nature is sinless. I believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary for the reasons I stated before, primarily God's promise to create enmity between Mary and Satan. And remember that God made this statement to Satan thousands of years before Mary was born, so He had this in mind for her from the beginning.

Though it may seem a logical point to make, it clearly shows that God “is a respecter of persons.” It would show that God saves the soul of some separate and apart of faith, which is contrary to scripture (Acts 10:34-35). Mary was save by grace through faith like everyone else who is saved (Eph. 2:8-9).

You must not have understood what I wrote. I said that Mary was saved via the same means as everyone else, that being the salvation purchased for us by the blood of the cross. My exact words were 'based on the promise of the Redemption of all mankind through the saving merits of Jesus Christ.' The only difference between Mary's salvation and ours is that God saved Mary before she committed actual sin, and He did this not out of respect for a person but out of respect for His Son who was going to dwell within Mary for 9 months.

Again, I'll remind you of the care God took in having the Ark of the Covenant built to exacting standards, and this ark was to carry stone tablets and a few relics. Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, was saved at the moment of her conception to create a pure dwelling for His Word in the flesh. Why do you have such a difficult time believing God would insure His Son a pure dwelling if He went to so much trouble to create a pure dwelling for stone tablets?

It was in the foreknowledge of God to know the end of every action, but this does not prevent the free will of every person. If Mary had failed to comply with God’s call for her, He would have taken another route to bring Christ into the world. He would have chosen another virgin through which He would have performed His will. This is clearly shown, in parallel, by God’s statement to Moses when Israel failed to believe His deliverance (Exodus 32:9-10). There would have ceased to be a “Nation of Israel” in favor of a “Nation of Moses.” The prophesy of Genesis 3:15 would have eventually fulfilled regardless of Mary’s action.
Again, I believe that to be a totally false conclusion to take, that Jehovah worked independent of His will for all man in saving Mary’s soul apart from faith. God does not work with mankind in that fashion.

God does not work with mankind in that fashion? Hmmm. Then we must not believe Samson's strength was related to his hair because 'God does not work with mankind in that fashion'. We must not believe the aged and barren Sarah became pregnant because 'God does not work with mankind in that fashion'. Should I go on with all the other things in the bible that was a unique gift from God to a particular human? Your line of reason, that the Immaculate Conception is false because 'God does not work with mankind in that fashion', would require us to dismiss much of scripture and certainly every miracle Christ performed because 'God does not work with mankind in that fashion'. Your reasoning here is flawed.

Besides, God is not just 'working with mankind' in regard to the Immaculate Conception. He was creating a fitting dwelling for His Son, the Word made flesh.

You have a compelling argument, of the “effects of original sin on the Mary’s soul” but such is not the case. The Bible tells us that “death” not “sin” passed to all man, for all have sinned (Romans 5:12) and thus show the facility of your argument. You may want to study more on the consequences and progression of sin in Ezekiel 18.

I agree that 'death' was passed to all men and not the 'sin' that Adam committed. Death is one of the effects of Adam's sin and part of what Catholics call 'original sin'. As I showed above, 'orginal sin' is not committed sin but rather the state of mankind after the fall of Adam. Adam originally had perfect holiness and justice because he was created in God's image. After the fall Adam no longer had those qualities and could not pass on the nature God had intended for mankind to have. I would agree that 'original sin' is not a good term to describe this state that mankind is in because we English speaking modern people think of the word 'sin' as an action or thought that is against God's will. In this case though it means a damaged nature caused by man's first sin.

For clarity, 'actual sin' or 'committed sin' is what you and I refer to as sin. A person is not capable of committing a sin until they reach the age when they know they are committing a sin. A baby can therefor not commit an actual sin, but is said to have 'original sin' to describe the state in which the baby was born, the state caused by Adam and Eve's 'original' sin.

In your argument that "It would also make sense that, because Jesus knew who His mother would be from the beginning of time, He would certainly do for His mother more than you and I could ever imagine doing for our mothers," again, you beg for the question and prompt the Lord for the respect of persons. This is a deep facility of your argument.

It is not the respect of a PERSON that my argument addresses, but rather respect of the second person of God, Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh. God prepared Mary as a vessel for His Son, and it would only be fitting for God to have the purest of vessels in which to dwell.

You asked me: "Please don't take any of this as a 'rebuke', but merely an explanation to straighten out a misunderstanding. And I thank you for providing the opportunity for me to offer this explanation. Also, keep up the good work on this thread." Likewise, I hope you will consider my response to your argument. I believe my response is sound. I hope you will accept it as such.

I appreciate your response but I think you didn't really give any thought to what I said in my original post. Or maybe I just didn't state my position clearly. For clarity let me summarize:

1. There is no 'Immaculate Conception of Christ'. (The term used to describe the conception and birth of Jesus is called 'The Incarnation')

2. The doctrine of orginal sin does not have anything to do with our committing sin. NOTHING. It is only a description of the state of mankind's nature after the fall of Adam. We are no longer a perfect image of God as we were originally created.

3. God's initiative to save Mary's soul from the moment of conception was NOT out of respect for Mary, or any other PERSON, but to prepare a suitable dwelling place for His Son.

The point of this post and the previous one is twofold. First, I wanted to clear up your misunderstanding of my belief. You may still disagree with what I believe, but at least now you know what the belief truly is.

Second, in going through this process I hope you will see why it is wise to refrain from declaring what someone else believes. I was continually finding myself guilty of the same fault, then I realized it was defeating the purpose of my coming to TOL - to learn about other beliefs and to share my beliefs with others.

In any case, this debate doesn't belong in this thread, so if you want to reply please send me a P.M. or start a new thread, etc...

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[c.moore]

Re: Re: Re: Why Are We Compelled To "Be Born" Again?

Re: Re: Re: Why Are We Compelled To "Be Born" Again?

Originally posted by JustAChristian


C. Moore,

Haven’t you been telling us all along that a Christian can’t lose their reward? You say God will keep us from evil and temptation, but it doesn’t matter because we are going to still get the reward if we keep on believing. Sounds like you want it both ways!!
What is it going to be? Are Christians going to keep their salvation and rewards no matter what they do in there Christian walk or are they conditional and subject to faithfulness on the part of the Christian? I know we can’t earn salvation. I think I told you that several times. Why do you keep bringing that up. Anyway, being baptized for the remission of sins in water is not earning salvation. It is obeying Christ (Heb. 5:8-9). Can’t you see the simplicity of that? Obeying is not earning! Obeying is not earning! Obeying is not earning! Obeying is not earning! Can’t you see that???????

You think the Holy Spirit makes you obey God. The Holy Spirit does not make you obey God! You do that based on if you want to do His will. He didn’t help Peter obey when he was showing favoritism to the Jewish brethren and Paul had to straighten him out (Gal. 2:11ff). You are misunderstanding the purpose of the Spirit of God. You need to be listening to the Spirit through the word and you want misunderstand Him. Jesus said, “Except a man be born of water and of Spirit” not a baby, but a man. Some people try to dodge this by saying the water there means natural birth. But, Jesus said a man ( or woman) must be born of water and of Spirit, meaning someone other than a baby. The word of God is able to instruct you in being born again. Are you listening?!!!

You said that we are spirit being like God. We are not spirit beings. We are physical beings. Don’t you know that the bible says a spirit does not have flesh and bones? (Luke 24:39).

God is persuaded to reward based on our faith in Him through Christ. Not obeying the command to be baptized is being unfaithful. Don’t you believe this?

You said that you believed John 3:5 meant water baptism until you found some reference verses. Where did you find those reference verses; in the footnotes of the Scofield Bible? C.moore, footnotes are scripture, and you can’t be saved by footnotes. It takes the word of God which says one must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

C.Moore, I pray that you will come to a fuller understanding of the bible and will quit depending on references verses and footnotes. Why don't you just accept what the bible says? It really is not that hard. God wants everyone to be saved (2 Peter 3:8-9), so it can't be all that hard to be. Keep searching, but not in the footnotes.

JustaChristian :thumb:

No, you can lose your rewards and crown, but your salvation is something different, which is a gift that a person only has to accept.

Some sons and daughter will lose thier reward but they are still in the family even though might say not will done my faithful son, but you just make it in front of heaven gates.

We obey after we have obtained salvation, and you will want to obey and do what Christ want us to do , but water baptism is not what saves us, it`s the repentance and the being washed in the blood of Jesus. the obedience is showing you Love back to Jesus as a son of God.
The Holy sprit is just a helper but we are the doers and we can be led by the Holy Spirit.

you say we are not spirits, but aren`t we spirit living in a body, and the real you is your personallity not you out side.

i didn`t use my foot note to find the references on John 3:5 i was taught this by my bible teaches, and preached this by my pastor ,and I heard this from big Evangelist, and bishops, and my spiritual parent explained it to me, which help me to be a disciple to teach others the truth rightly dividing the word of God.

what do you think in the mouth of twoor three witnesses mean JAC?????

Can we just take one scripture and make a complete doctrine out of it like the mormon did with the water baptism for the dead for instance????

I wouild like to ask you A question what church do you belong to or have felowship with????

do you have a pastor in your church and do you think all that he preach if you obey and go to a church are lies????

peace

peace

 

[Freak]

God bless you C. Moore. Elizabeth and I are planned to arrive in Germany in March (did you get our email?).

JustWorks,

Jesus said rather clearly that if we come to Him (not through water) we would be saved (see John 10:9).

 

[Apollos]

Germany, huh?

Germany, huh?

Freak -

I see that you are guilty of yet another "drive-by shooting" off of your mouth.

Maybe you will find the courage of your convictions in Germany. Until then I will know that you don't know what it means to "come unto Him".

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Freak
God bless you C. Moore. Elizabeth and I are planned to arrive in Germany in March (did you get our email?).

JustWorks,

Jesus said rather clearly that if we come to Him (not through water) we would be saved (see John 10:9).

Hey praise the Lord , your back and now TOL is back to normal wjen we have somebody to drive the devils away.

i got your e-mail and we will be waiting for you , and I hope this time I will get a live broadcast time with you on the OF cable tv.

God bless you and your wife. :up: :thumb:

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Freak
God bless you C. Moore. Elizabeth and I are planned to arrive in Germany in March (did you get our email?).

JustWorks,

Jesus said rather clearly that if we come to Him (not through water) we would be saved (see John 10:9).

Freak,
People never received the blessings of God unless they went through the water (i.e. Noah went through the flood, the Israelites went through the Red Sea, the 2nd generation Israelites went through the Jordan, and believers in Christ must go through the water). You need to accept this.

Peter help us to see this by his letter to the church...

“...By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:19-21 AV). The answer of a good conscience toward God comes because one takes the steps to be cleansed of sins (Acts 22:16).

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

Apollos-

The means we enter a personal relationship with Jesus is faith and faith alone. This is not accomplished by any works but merely by faith in the risen Savior.

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

The means we enter a personal relationship with Jesus is faith and faith alone. This is not accomplished by any works but merely by faith in the risen Savior.

Your statement is in sharp contradiction with scripture. The only place in the bible the words 'faith' and 'alone' are used together is in James when he tells us faith alone is DEAD.

Even so, faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

You need to read the entire bible, not just selected verses out of context, to understand the full meaning.

God bess and have a safe trip to Germany,

Francisco

PS - What part of Germany are you visiting?

 

[Freak]

Francisco-

My wife and I will be traveling to Franfurt then on to Kassel where my good friend and evangelist C. Moore lives. We are going to preach the Gospel and cast out demons.

Romans 5:1 is clear-Having been justified by faith.

No mention of works just faith.

 

[JustAChristian]

The Faith That Saves Is The Faith That Obeys!

The Faith That Saves Is The Faith That Obeys!

What do you know about “Faith?” It ranks prominent in the Christian religion. It’s a subject however, that is misunderstood by many and thus is vital that we give it a period of study.

A definition of faith is seen in the letter to the Hebrews. The Bible says, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Heb 11:1). Further we read, “But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him” (Heb.11:6) Faith is relying on our limited knowledge of a fact until we have actual knowledge of it. I know that San Francisco, California exist, but I have no personal knowledge of that fact. I must depend upon supporting evidence such a pictures and maps to help me accept it. If I ever go to San Francisco some day, I will see it and will have personal knowledge. That is my faith working today.

Jesus said and it is recorded in the Bible to “have faith in God” (Mk. 11:22) Added to what we have seen before, we have at least two commandments to believe in God. We must believe in God. We must know what it means to believe in Him. It should not be hard for the average person to accept the existence of God based just on the factors around him. The heavens and the earth are God’s handy work and show His existence (Psalms 19:1-3). Who created all that we see and have if not a Supreme Being? You might want to accept “the big Bang” hypothesis, but remember, Matter can not come from Non-matter. There has to be a first cause designer, and that is God.

Jesus goes on to say, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me” (Jn. 14:1). We must believe also in Jesus the Christ. If we do not believe that Jesus is the Anointed Messiah and sent from God to redeem us of our sins, then we will die in ours sins ( Jn 8:24). The Bible abounds in information to show who Jesus is and that He is God’s only begotten Son. There is no reason not to accept Him for what He is and promises to do for the faithful. Yes in deed, Jesus is!!

Someone might be asking, “Why should I accept the Bible? Isn’t it some book of stories written by a lot of people with many contradictions in it?” Well, the Bible is a book written by about 40 different people under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It has been accused of having many contradictions, but a careful study and “dividing it right” (2 Tim 2:15), will eliminate any thoughts there might be contradictions.

The Bible tells us that we must believe in the writings of Moses saying, “For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings , how shall ye believe my words” (Jn 5:46-47). We are called to accept Jesus by faith, but this is not possible unless we are willing to accept what Moses wrote of Him.

The Bible continues by telling us to believe in the writings of the Prophets. The apostle Paul tell in one of his sermons recorded in the Book of Acts, “Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come” (Acts 26:22). The writings of the prophets greatly told of God, Jesus and all that is sufficient to believe in them. We can not ignore their knowledge. We are called upon to believe the Gospel for salvation (Mk 1:15 ; 16:15-16) This is the message of the life and work of Christ on earth. It is the means by which man will be saved ( Rom 1:16).Unless we believe the gospel, we cannot be save from our sins.

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

What Faith Saves?

What Faith Saves?

Originally posted by Freak
Francisco-

My wife and I will be traveling to Franfurt then on to Kassel where my good friend and evangelist C. Moore lives. We are going to preach the Gospel and cast out demons.

Romans 5:1 is clear-Having been justified by faith.

No mention of works just faith.

Peter said,

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him" ( Acts 5:32 ).

You haven't obey, so you don't have God's Spirit. :nono:

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

Francisco-

My wife and I will be traveling to Franfurt then on to Kassel where my good friend and evangelist C. Moore lives. We are going to preach the Gospel and cast out demons.

Romans 5:1 is clear-Having been justified by faith.

No mention of works just faith.

I hope you have a great trip, Freak. I love Germany and miss it almost as much as Italy, which I consider my home away from home. BTW, German food has got to be the most underated food in the world. Eat some potato dumplings for me!

In regard to your mention of Rom 5:1, I agree that faith saves, but this is only one verse out of many. To understand the complete thought you must consider all the verses dealing with our salvation. Also, you will see in Romans that Paul speaks of the 'obedience of faith' (1:5) indicating the requirement that we obey God's commands. Paul also tells us in Romans that God will 'repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness' (2:6-8).

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[c.moore]

what do you think in the mouth of two or three witnesses mean JustAchristian?????

Can we just take one scripture and make a complete doctrine out of it like the mormon did with the water baptism for the dead for instance????

I wouild like to ask you A question what church do you belong to or have felowship with????

do you have a pastor in your church and do you think all that he preach if you obey and go to a church are lies????

peace

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Francisco
Freak,
I hope you have a great trip, Freak. I love Germany and miss it almost as much as Italy, which I consider my home away from home. BTW, German food has got to be the most underated food in the world. Eat some potato dumplings for me!

In regard to your mention of Rom 5:1, I agree that faith saves, but this is only one verse out of many. To understand the complete thought you must consider all the verses dealing with our salvation. Also, you will see in Romans that Paul speaks of the 'obedience of faith' (1:5) indicating the requirement that we obey God's commands. Paul also tells us in Romans that God will 'repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness' (2:6-8).

God Bless,

Francisco

Appreciate the kind words.

My friend, Paul, is rather clear-justification is by faith. We are justified not by good deeds but rather by faith in Jesus. Jesus is enough. We are humans we cannot do anything to save ourselves. But Jesus can!