The Gospel Verses Predestination

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MennoSota

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The spiritual death there is figurative, it is not, literal.

Case in point...

The Lord

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

King Herod

Acts 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

In both passages, both the Lord and King Herod had been literally alive, spiritually.

Why?

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Though, in the Lord's case...

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Which is why what is said in the latter part of following verse can only be said...of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

And yet that passage is talking about a literal quickening.

Which the figurative quickening represents.

There is a figurative, and there is a literal...spiritual death.

The Lord's Spirit had been alive both figuratively, and literally.

In contrast, though King Herod's spirit had been alive literally, it had been dead, figuratively.

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Alive, and yet...dead, in other words - past feeling.

The figuratively dead, then, refers to God's having pronounced one as being alienated from Him.

Which is how we are born: spiritually alive, literally, but spiritually dead, figuratively.

How did we end up this way?

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That is a figurative death.

As the very end of Genesis 3 depicts it, it refers to being pronounced basically alienated from God, by Him. We'll see that in a sec...

But notice that Adam is still very much alive after he fails to heed that warning...

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

The result of said figurative death, spiritually, or alienation from God, in Adam's offspring?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Result?

Note the part of the following after the words "And you hath he quickened, who were..."

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

What is this dead in trespasses and sins?

Can dead men walk?

Apparantly - for the thing is figurative.

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In other words, we were by our very nature, alienated from God.

Our best bet was...His pending...wrath!

As far as God was concerned, whenever He looked over at us, His conclusion was "you're dead to Me - I NEVER knew you..." Matthew 7:23.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You ever heard that phrase "you're dead to me"?

As when God told Israel...

Ezekiel 23:18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.

See this?

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

That is the same as this...

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

It was His death - in - our - stead - that - was literal.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Which leads, of course, to my favorite way to end my posts - to glorying in, once more, in...

Romans 5:6-11.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The night of the living...dead.

Figuratively, speaking, that is.

Hmmm, I should have saved this for the end of October.

:chuckle:
All that and you neglect the fact that God must make them alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:4-6) God is the reason a person gets saved. A human cannot save themselves. They cannot will it to happen. A power greater than themselves must choose to save them. That choice was made before the foundation of the world.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
"Disputed and disdained though it may be, predestination and its sibling, election, are plainly taught in Scripture and every exegete must make peace with it..."

https://founders.org/2017/05/26/predestination-is-practical/

AMR

To embrace Calvinism is to commit spiritual suicide.

It requires one to believe that God is unjust and that his Son Jesus Christ is a failure. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament we see and read about people that are justified by faith. These are people that love and believe God and are confident that he will do what he promises to do.

Calvinism teaches that God predestinates people to hell before they are born. And then to add insult to injury they proclaim that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, but only atoned for some sins. We are saved and justified by faith in Christ and his Gospel. Calvinism destroys faith in God and in his Son Jesus Christ.

It is not humanly possible to have faith in a God the predestinates people to hell before they are born, nor is it possible to have faith in a Christ that cannot atone for the sins of the whole world. What Calvinist have faith in are the words of a heretic.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
To embrace Calvinism is to commit spiritual suicide.

It requires one to believe that God is unjust and that his Son Jesus Christ is a failure. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament we see and read about people that are justified by faith. These are people that love and believe God and are confident that he will do what he promises to do.

Calvinism teaches that God predestinates people to hell before they are born. And then to add insult to injury they proclaim that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, but only atoned for some sins. We are saved and justified by faith in Christ and his Gospel. Calvinism destroys faith in God and in his Son Jesus Christ.

It is not humanly possible to have faith in a God the predestinates people to hell before they are born, nor is it possible to have faith in a Christ that cannot atone for the sins of the whole world. What Calvinist have faith in are the words of a heretic.

To embrace pateism is spiritual suicide sense it teaches against the saving efficacy of Christ's blood !
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
To embrace pateism is spiritual suicide sense it teaches against the saving efficacy of Christ's blood !


If anyone teaches against the "saving efficacy of Christ's blood" it is you and your Calvinist doctrine. The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the WHOLE world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14.

All that you have the power to do is make false accusations, just like your father, Revelation 12:10.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
If anyone teaches against the "saving efficacy of Christ's blood" it is you and your Calvinist doctrine. The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the WHOLE world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14.

All that you have the power to do is make false accusations, just like your father, Revelation 12:10.

I teach that everyone Christ died for, His Sheep, His death saved them thats saving efficacy. You teach that sinners Christ died for shall be lost, hence teaching that Christs death doesnt have saving efficacy.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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To embrace Calvinism is to commit spiritual suicide.

It requires one to believe that God is unjust and that his Son Jesus Christ is a failure. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament we see and read about people that are justified by faith. These are people that love and believe God and are confident that he will do what he promises to do.

Calvinism teaches that God predestinates people to hell before they are born. And then to add insult to injury they proclaim that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, but only atoned for some sins. We are saved and justified by faith in Christ and his Gospel. Calvinism destroys faith in God and in his Son Jesus Christ.

It is not humanly possible to have faith in a God the predestinates people to hell before they are born, nor is it possible to have faith in a Christ that cannot atone for the sins of the whole world. What Calvinist have faith in are the words of a heretic.
Robert,

You continue to just cavil about this or that, versus actually interacting with what has actually been responded to your posts.

Take the item I linked to, dissect it, pointing out where you think the disagreements are in your view, and why you disagree.

Further, note that a previous item:
https://www.chapellibrary.org/files/9613/7658/4053/gagr.pdf

Does not even mention Calvin or any man, so you might try thinking about topics without resorting to your usual genetic fallacy. I am confident you do not want people dismissing what you have to say just because you said it. For if everyone did so, your efforts are just talking to yourself. If you want to be taken seriously, try extending the same courtesy to others.

AMR
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned

Why do you keeping posting those Calvinist links that are written by men. I have a KJV of the Bible, all that I need to know about anything is in the Bible and not in the brain of some heretic. What is it that you don't understand that is not taught by the Bible? Ask me any question and I will answer it with scripture. If it isn't in the Bible, maybe God does not want you to know.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Rather than seeking more heavy-lifting from me, why not interact with what I actually posted, Robert?

Moving the goal posts does not further the discussion.

Perhaps you (Robert!) can start with some notions you have about what "free will" actually means. For now, I am not interested in what others have to say. Only you. So try to provide an answer all on your own rather than awaiting to tee off what others have to say.

AMR

Free will means that a person has the ability to choose. Example. I became a Christian when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for Christ. Rather than resist the Spirit I yielded to the call. I said yes to Jesus and have been saying yes to Jesus for almost 50 years.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Free will means that a person has the ability to choose. Example. I became a Christian when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for Christ. Rather than resist the Spirit I yielded to the call. I said yes to Jesus and have been saying yes to Jesus for almost 50 years.
Of course, free will means ability to choose, Robert. What motivates one's choice when so choosing? We will always choose according to our greatest inclinations when we so choose, even when a gun is to our head coercing us. Of course the latter is a forced choice, but a choice nevertheless.

How do you explain your choice to believe and your neighbor's choice to not believe?

AMR
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Of course, free will means ability to choose, Robert. What motivates one's choice when so choosing? We will always choose according to our greatest inclinations when we so choose, even when a gun is to our head coercing us. Of course the latter is a forced choice, but a choice nevertheless.

How do you explain your choice to believe and your neighbor's choice to not believe?

AMR


The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; FOR GOD HAS SHOWED IT UNTO THEM. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and God head, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT AN EXCUSE" Romans 1:18-20.

If my neighbor rejects Christ he is without an excuse. He had a choice to make and he chose to reject what God has revealed to him and in doing so he by his own free will and logic condemned himself to hell. God didn't send him to hell, he sent himself.

The Bible plainly teaches that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17 which is the Gospel. Listen to what Paul is saying,

"For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them; but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" Hebrews 4:2.

Some heard the Gospel and believed, some heard and didn't believe. This is the way that it is. God did not predestinate anyone to believe or not to believe, it was every ones individual choice. If it was not that way the scripture would say so.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; FOR GOD HAS SHOWED IT UNTO THEM. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and God head, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT AN EXCUSE" Romans 1:18-20.

If my neighbor rejects Christ he is without an excuse. He had a choice to make and he chose to reject what God has revealed to him and in doing so he by his own free will and logic condemned himself to hell. God didn't send him to hell, he sent himself.

The Bible plainly teaches that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17 which is the Gospel. Listen to what Paul is saying,

"For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them; but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" Hebrews 4:2.

Some heard the Gospel and believed, some heard and didn't believe. This is the way that it is. God did not predestinate anyone to believe or not to believe, it was every ones individual choice. If it was not that way the scripture would say so.
You don't believe Jesus Blood saves.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
 

MennoSota

New member
The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; FOR GOD HAS SHOWED IT UNTO THEM. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and God head, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT AN EXCUSE" Romans 1:18-20.

If my neighbor rejects Christ he is without an excuse. He had a choice to make and he chose to reject what God has revealed to him and in doing so he by his own free will and logic condemned himself to hell. God didn't send him to hell, he sent himself.

The Bible plainly teaches that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17 which is the Gospel. Listen to what Paul is saying,

"For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them; but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" Hebrews 4:2.

Some heard the Gospel and believed, some heard and didn't believe. This is the way that it is. God did not predestinate anyone to believe or not to believe, it was every ones individual choice. If it was not that way the scripture would say so.

So...by your logic...all people who cannot logically think through the reasons for having faith in God, thereby reject Him. This would mean all people with mental disabilities are doomed because they could not conceive of God's grace and thereby reject it.
Second, you must outright reject every verse and passage that declares God predestines, elects and chooses people to do His bidding. Such large swaths of scripture must be torn out of your Bible as to make it void of the Gospel.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
So...by your logic...all people who cannot logically think through the reasons for having faith in God, thereby reject Him. This would mean all people with mental disabilities are doomed because they could not conceive of God's grace and thereby reject it.
Second, you must outright reject every verse and passage that declares God predestines, elects and chooses people to do His bidding. Such large swaths of scripture must be torn out of your Bible as to make it void of the Gospel.


You apparently have no faith in God. It appears that you believe he is a robot that cannot reason or show mercy. I notice that you seldom if ever quote scripture, which makes me believe that you have no regard for the word of God. You have made up your mind what you are going to believe and to hell with what the scriptures are saying.

The fact remains that there is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell. But there are hundreds of scriptures about believing and having faith. Everyone will be judged by what they know and believe about Jesus Christ. If someone is mentally ill they will not be held to the same standard as those that have good minds. God is just, merciful, kind, loving and is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.
 

MennoSota

New member
You apparently have no faith in God. It appears that you believe he is a robot that cannot reason or show mercy. I notice that you seldom if ever quote scripture, which makes me believe that you have no regard for the word of God. You have made up your mind what you are going to believe and to hell with what the scriptures are saying.

The fact remains that there is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell. But there are hundreds of scriptures about believing and having faith. Everyone will be judged by what they know and believe about Jesus Christ. If someone is mentally ill they will not be held to the same standard as those that have good minds. God is just, merciful, kind, loving and is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.
Perhaps you are blind because you cannot see the goodness of God's gracious choice when all humanity falls short and has missed the mark.
God continually shows mercy upon humanity as He withholds the just wrath humanity deserves. Such merciful patience is a great blessing to all men so that they might eat drink and be merry before the judgment.
You notice very little if you have not observed the vast passages I have shared that speak of God's choice, election and predestination. These passages dwarf the handful of verses that you rip out of context to create your philosophy.
 

God's Truth

New member
Free will means that a person has the ability to choose. Example. I became a Christian when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for Christ. Rather than resist the Spirit I yielded to the call. I said yes to Jesus and have been saying yes to Jesus for almost 50 years.

The Holy Spirit convicted the whole world. ALL and WHOMEVER can come to Jesus to get saved.
 

God's Truth

New member
So...by your logic...all people who cannot logically think through the reasons for having faith in God, thereby reject Him. This would mean all people with mental disabilities are doomed because they could not conceive of God's grace and thereby reject it.
Second, you must outright reject every verse and passage that declares God predestines, elects and chooses people to do His bidding. Such large swaths of scripture must be torn out of your Bible as to make it void of the Gospel.

Those with mental disabilities are given little to nothing in this world, and little to nothing is demanded of them.
 
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