ECT The Gospel Proper

[Clete]

I cannot think of any place where the bible uses the word "gospel" as simply "good news."

Is there even one single time that you have ever conceded even the most childishly simple of points?

The Greek word is euaggelion and, as I said, the dictionary meaning of the word is "good news". That's what the word means, get over it.


How long before you figure out that I can detect your leading questions before I'm finished reading them and will not be taking your bait?

 

[Clete]

Apples and oranges.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

[Idolater]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Saying that demons, Satan, and human beings are all 'apples' doesn't make it so either. Burden of proof's on you.

 

[Clete]

John 8:24-26 KJV
(24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
(25) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
(26) I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

In John 8:24 it is hard to be dogmatic that Jesus meant "unless you believe that I AM" where our translation says "unless you believe that I am he." I readily acknowledge that Jesus is "I AM" (as introduced to Moses at the bush) but that could also be read as meaning:

* Unless you believe that I am from above (from John 8:23)
* Unless you believe that I am the judge of you (from John 8:26)
* Unless you believe that I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him (also from John 8:26)
* Unless you believe that I am the Son of Man lifted up as your Passover Lamb (John 8:28)
* Unless you believe that I do nothing of myself but as the Father hath taught me (John 8:28)

I do believe that any (or all) of those points above do eventually lead from "I am he" to "I AM" when followed to their natural conclusion, but again, "believe" is a matter of that which is brought to life in the heart, not that which is coolly acknowledged in the head. If one proceeds in faith that the words of Christ are those of God in heaven above, the rest will eventually fall into place. We are saved by faith made perfect, not by perfect facts.

As you are so fond of pointing out, it is the context that makes it perfectly clear what Jesus was directly implying.

Further, John's argument included quite a bit more than that single verse.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Saying that demons, Satan, and human beings are all 'apples' doesn't make it so either. Burden of proof's on you.

No. I made an argument. Your rebuttal amounts to a bald claim that my comparison is invalid.

I reject that claim.

Either establish that there is a material difference or my argument stands. My argument isn't invalid because you make the claim that it is.

Incidentally, I didn't say that "demons, Satan, and human beings are all 'apples'". It is the actions of demons that are similar to the actions of people. You posited that all people need do is that there was a person named Jesus who died on a cross and rose from the dead and they'd be saved even if they get everything else wrong. Well, demons and Satan are all fully aware and complete accept and believe that Jesus existed, died and rose from the dead!

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!​

 

[Clete]

Okay, so I made some changes to the wording. I'm not sure I'm 100% satisfied with it. It's surprisingly difficult to boil the gospel down to something this concise.

I edited the OP and repost the list here for your consideration...

• God exists.
• He is the Creator of all things and He is holy, perfect and just.
• We have, by doing evil things, rebelled against God.
• We, having rebelled against the God who gave us life, deserve death.
• God, being unwilling that all should perish, provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ and who is God incarnate.
• Jesus, being Himself innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Idolater]

No. I made an argument. Your rebuttal amounts to a bald claim that my comparison is invalid.

I reject that claim.

Either establish that there is a material difference or my argument stands. My argument isn't invalid because you make the claim that it is.

Incidentally, I didn't say that "demons, Satan, and human beings are all 'apples'". It is the actions of demons that are similar to the actions of people. You posited that all people need do is that there was a person named Jesus who died on a cross and rose from the dead and they'd be saved even if they get everything else wrong. Well, demons and Satan are all fully aware and complete accept and believe that Jesus existed, died and rose from the dead!

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!​

Clete, come now. The demons and Satan not only know these things, but they know the entire authentic Christian faith, they know the whole Gospel. They all probably know it better than anybody this side of the grave. So now what? What is your point?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Clete, come now. The demons and Satan not only know these things, but they know the entire authentic Christian faith, they know the whole Gospel. They all probably know it better than anybody this side of the grave. So now what? What is your point?

They know it, but they don't accept it.

 

[Clete]

Clete, come now. The demons and Satan not only know these things, but they know the entire authentic Christian faith, they know the whole Gospel. They all probably know it better than anybody this side of the grave. So now what? What is your point?

In response to my asking you...

"So, if some lunatic starts a religion that's completlely made up out of whole cloth in every respect accept that one of their main characters in their made up religoous story is a guy named Jesus who was murdered on a cross in Jerusalem and rose from the dead, you're okay with thinking that this lunatic's converts are going to pass through God's judgement intact?"​

You, in post 49 responded...

"That is exactly what I've said, though iow. I cannot conceive of a person who believes that Christ's Resurrection is an historical fact, nonfiction, who is not in some sense my sibling in Christ."​

By that standard, Satan and every demon that exists is your sibling in Christ!

How is this hard to follow?

 

[Idolater]

In response to my asking you...

"So, if some lunatic starts a religion that's completlely made up out of whole cloth in every respect accept that one of their main characters in their made up religoous story is a guy named Jesus who was murdered on a cross in Jerusalem and rose from the dead, you're okay with thinking that this lunatic's converts are going to pass through God's judgement intact?"​

You, in post 49 responded...

"That is exactly what I've said, though iow. I cannot conceive of a person who believes that Christ's Resurrection is an historical fact, nonfiction, who is not in some sense my sibling in Christ."​

By that standard, Satan and every demon that exists is your sibling in Christ!

How is this hard to follow?

And thus my 'apples and oranges' comment. It's not hard at all.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The demons and Satan not only know these things, but they know the entire authentic Christian faith, they know the whole Gospel. They all probably know it better than anybody this side of the grave.

The factuality of something is not the same as faith. To know is but one component of faith, the other two components being trust and assent. If the devil and his minions truly know the Gospel, they would not be demons, yet, just as unbelievers may claim intellectual knowledge of God, not a one of them trust nor confidently affirm what they claim to know.

Those in Hell know God exists. They are full of regret, but not genuine repentance. If it were possible for such to genuinely repent, they would actually recognize and know that they are exactly where they should be. Alas, this does not happen, for they will continue eternally to gnash their teeth (grinding in hatred) with fists upward at God, hence justifying their eternal retribution by God.

We should avoid attributing to satan and his minions more knowledge than is warranted.

AMR

 

[Clete]

And thus my 'apples and oranges' comment. It's not hard at all.

Again, you merely making the claim that my argument is "apples and oranges" doesn't make it so.

In what way is it untrue of demons that they "believe that Christ's Resurrection is an historical fact, nonfiction"?

It is PRECISELY the same form of argument that James makes in James 2:19, except that it's being applied to a different point of doctrine.

 

[Idolater]

The factuality of something is not the same as faith. To know is but one component of faith, the other two components being trust and assent. If the devil and his minions truly know the Gospel, they would not be demons, yet, just as unbelievers may claim intellectual knowledge of God, not a one of them trust nor confidently affirm what they claim to know.

And I would also say that there isn't any such thing as a person who believes in the historicity of Christ's Resurrection, who isn't also a Christian.

Those in Hell know God exists. They are full of regret, but not genuine repentance. If it were possible for such to genuinely repent, they would actually recognize and know that they are exactly where they should be. Alas, this does not happen, for they will continue eternally to gnash their teeth (grinding in hatred) with fists upward at God, hence justifying their eternal retribution by God.

Agreed.

We should avoid attributing to satan and his minions more knowledge than is warranted.

AMR

I don't think that I'm doing that, in saying that they believe Christ Jesus is risen from the dead.

 

[Clete]

The factuality of something is not the same as faith. To know is but one component of faith, the other two components being trust and assent. If the devil and his minions truly know the Gospel, they would not be demons, yet, just as unbelievers may claim intellectual knowledge of God, not a one of them trust nor confidently affirm what they claim to know.

Those in Hell know God exists. They are full of regret, but not genuine repentance. If it were possible for such to genuinely repent, they would actually recognize and know that they are exactly where they should be. Alas, this does not happen, for they will continue eternally to gnash their teeth (grinding in hatred) with fists upward at God, hence justifying their eternal retribution by God.

We should avoid attributing to satan and his minions more knowledge than is warranted.

AMR

The overarching point of this post is correct but you assert things you cannot know about what demons and or people in Hell think. And one should remember that there will come a judgement day where every knee shall bow and every tongue confess...


Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.

 

[Idolater]

Again, you merely making the claim that my argument is "apples and oranges" doesn't make it so.

In what way are demons and Satan and human beings the same category, apart from us all being created? In what way does 1Co15:3-4KJV apply to demons and Satan, are they included in 'our?' I don't think so. Rather, I think they know that passage as the following: "Christ died for [mankind's] sins according to the scriptures (not us demons!); 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"

In what way is it untrue of demons that they "believe that Christ's Resurrection is an historical fact, nonfiction"?

It's not untrue. I believe that they all know that.

It is PRECISELY the same form of argument that James makes in James 2:19, except that it's being applied to a different point of doctrine.

Speaking of doctrine, that's one of the reasons I've crystallized the whole Gospel into Christ's Resurrection, because it's not doctrine at all, but history. Doctrine surrounds the Resurrection, there is one authentically Christian way to explain the Resurrection, what it means, Who He is, etc. But the Resurrection is simply a fact of history, not requiring any doctrine or theology at all to believe.

 

[Clete]

And I would also say that there isn't any such thing as a person who believes in the historicity of Christ's Resurrection, who isn't also a Christian.

Satan is a person and so are all the demons.

Agreed.

Thank you for acknowledging MY point!

 

[steko]

I cannot think of any place where the bible uses the word "gospel" as simply "good news."

Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings[euaggelizo- good news] of great joy, which shall be to all people.

 

[musterion]

If there's no preaching of the cross as the sole and complete remedy for sin, then no saving message is being preached, whatever other details may be included. Anyone who believes any Bible facts MINUS the content of 1 Cor 15:3-4 is not saved.

 

[Rosenritter]

It's at least 'simply' Good News. It's more than that but not less. In no way is Christ's Resurrection not Good News. :thumb: on the 'table' formatting also---'learn something new everyday.

"Good news" would be a massive understatement; my objection was the association of salvation unto eternal life for all men as merely "good news." Gospel (as per the German, Gott spiel, God's word) has significance far beyond a minimalist label that could also be assigned to Twitter feeds.

 

[Clete]

It's not untrue. I believe that they all know that.

Of course they do! That's the entire point!

I cannot believe that you are missing this.

What do you think was James' point when he made the same argument? Were demons and people in the "same category" when he made the argument?

Speaking of doctrine, that's one of the reasons I've crystallized the whole Gospel into Christ's Resurrection, because it's not doctrine at all, but history. Doctrine surrounds the Resurrection, there is one authentically Christian way to explain the Resurrection, what it means, Who He is, etc. But the Resurrection is simply a fact of history, not requiring any doctrine or theology at all to believe.

There is all sorts of doctrine that happens to also be historical fact. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

The creation week was a historical event.
Adam and eve eating from the Tree of the The Knowledge of Good and Evil was a historical event.
Noah's Flood was a historical event.
The burning bush was a historical event.
Passover was a hostorical event.
Moses parting the Red Sea was a historical fact.
Paul recieving his gospel directly from the risen and glorified Jesus Christ was a historical event.

Pertty near the whole of the Chrisitian faith is about believing history as recorded by God in the Bible.

Clete