ECT The Gospel Proper

[Clete]

I agree to some point, so to challenge/understand your point better, do we need to even utter the words?

I think Paul has it right...

Romans 10:8b “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

 

[Clete]

You missed it-I expounded previously, on other posts, citing chapter, verse, so you saying to me"your argument consisted of the single word, "Wrong".,." is misguided, and, yes, wrong.


See re-post #54.


Post #17, for eg.
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?131175-The-Gospel-Proper&p=5288451&highlight=#post5288451

I didn't miss it. Post 17 argues that Jesus is God but that wasn't in dispute.

It no longer matters. You made the argument in post 47, which was the point of my saying it in the first place.

 

[john w]

I didn't miss it. Post 17 argues that Jesus is God but that wasn't in dispute.

It no longer matters. You made the argument in post 47, which was the point of my saying it in the first place.

No, you asserted that just asserting that He must God, does not make it so; I gave my reasons, as to the "why," previously, after I said "Wrong."

 

[turbosixx]

I think Paul has it right...

Romans 10:8b “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

Paul always has it right.

It's my understanding, that Paul is writing to Christians and telling them of the ignorance of the Jews who seek righteousness within the law while they have faith that is within them.

So you believe the words must be uttered, with the mouth confession is made

It's my opinion that it's something we must do and is evidence of repentance. I would suggest repentance is part of the gospel, it appears Paul preached repentance from the very beginning to everyone.
Acts 26:19 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul always has it right.

It's my understanding, that Paul is writing to Christians and telling them of the ignorance of the Jews who seek righteousness within the law while they have faith that is within them.

So you believe the words must be uttered, with the mouth confession is made

It's my opinion that it's something we must do and is evidence of repentance. I would suggest repentance is part of the gospel, it appears Paul preached repentance from the very beginning to everyone.
Acts 26:19 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

Repentance is a change in mind (heart)....from unbelief to belief. Which is why Paul says, "Believe in your heart...." and doesn't use the word "repentance" in Romans 10.

I agree acknowledging Jesus Christ is Lord means that "from the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." Not every can speak, of course, but they can still make it be known.

 

[john w]

Repentance is a change in mind (heart)....from unbelief to belief. Which is why Paul says, "Believe in your heart...." and doesn't use the word "repentance" in Romans 10.

I agree acknowledging Jesus Christ is Lord means that "from the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." Not every can speak, of course, but they can still make it be known.

Yes, and the context is "changing their mind" re. who this "Jesus" is, turn to to God and do works that are appropriate to changing your mind, just as Peter urged in Luke 22:32 KJV.

 

[Clete]

No, you asserted that just asserting that He must God, does not make it so; I gave my reasons, as to the "why," previously, after I said "Wrong."

Although it happens to be the case that simply asserting that He must be God doesn't make it so, I did not assert that. You miss understood. My assertion, and our only disagreement so far on this thread has had entirely to do with whether or not one must understand and accept that Jesus is God in order to get saved.

"Saying it doesn't make it so." was said in response to post 31 where you said the following (emphasis added)...

I know that you assert that he is God. My issue is that you assert that acknowledging this truth is not necessary to be saved.


Wrong.​

After my having said, rather politely I might add, that saying it doesn't make it so, you then went on to make an excellent argument in favor of that "wrong" assertion which was precisely the point of my having said what I said. All I wanted was for you to make an argument that addressed our actual point of disagreement. Up to that point you had made repeated arguments in favor of the fact that He is God which is the point that was NEVER in dispute.

Are we clear now?

Clete

 

[Clete]

Paul always has it right.

It's my understanding, that Paul is writing to Christians and telling them of the ignorance of the Jews who seek righteousness within the law while they have faith that is within them.

So you believe the words must be uttered, with the mouth confession is made

It's my opinion that it's something we must do and is evidence of repentance. I would suggest repentance is part of the gospel, it appears Paul preached repentance from the very beginning to everyone.
Acts 26:19 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

Your deeds add nothing to the cross. They add nothing to your righteousness, which is not yours in the first place. We are saved unto good works, not by them. As glorydaz so susinctly put it in post 65, repentence is a changed mind.

 

[Clete]

John,

The deity of Christ is included in the fifth point but could be made more prominent. I'm still interested in specifically how you would recommend editing it to make it better.

In fact, I'd be interested in any modifications that you might make in the entire list, whether it be in the wording or the order or whatever.

 

[turbosixx]

Repentance is a change in mind (heart)....from unbelief to belief. Which is why Paul says, "Believe in your heart...." and doesn't use the word "repentance" in Romans 10.

I agree acknowledging Jesus Christ is Lord means that "from the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." Not every can speak, of course, but they can still make it be known.

I agree repentance is a change of mind.

 

[turbosixx]

Your deeds add nothing to the cross. They add nothing to your righteousness, which is not yours in the first place. We are saved unto good works, not by them. As glorydaz so susinctly put it in post 65, repentence is a changed mind.

I agree repentance is a change of mind/direction.

I totally agree, 100%, we are NOT saved by our works. Based on your comments here, I'm wondering if confess with the mouth should be removed from your list.

I suggest confession is not repentance but evidence of repentance. If someone who is in Christ confesses Him as Lord, that is confession but not necessarily repentance.

 

[john w]

Although it happens to be the case that simply asserting that He must be God doesn't make it so, I did not assert that. You miss understood. My assertion, and our only disagreement so far on this thread has had entirely to do with whether or not one must understand and accept that Jesus is God in order to get saved.

"Saying it doesn't make it so." was said in response to post 31 where you said the following (emphasis added)...

I know that you assert that he is God. My issue is that you assert that acknowledging this truth is not necessary to be saved.


Wrong.​

After my having said, rather politely I might add, that saying it doesn't make it so, you then went on to make an excellent argument in favor of that "wrong" assertion which was precisely the point of my having said what I said. All I wanted was for you to make an argument that addressed our actual point of disagreement. Up to that point you had made repeated arguments in favor of the fact that He is God which is the point that was NEVER in dispute.

Are we clear now?

Clete

Crystal!

 

[Clete]

I agree repentance is a change of mind/direction.

I totally agree, 100%, we are NOT saved by our works. Based on your comments here, I'm wondering if confess with the mouth should be removed from your list.

I suggest confession is not repentance but evidence of repentance. If someone who is in Christ confesses Him as Lord, that is confession but not necessarily repentance.

I can't imagine removing it from the list. Paul himself says "confession is made unto salvation". One might debate about just what that means but one way or another it seems it needs to be in there.

 

[Clete]

Crystal!

Cool! :up:

 

[Clete]

Okay, so it looks like I need to beef up the verbage surrounding the diety of Christ, which I will think through and come up with something.

Is there anything else that anyone can think of that would make my presentation of the gospel proper better?

 

[Rosenritter]

The question, "What is the Gospel?" has come up a few times in various recent conversations I've had both here on TOL and elsewhere and I've been somewhat surprised by the degree of confusion that exists around what seems like ought to be a simple thing. Of course the confusion surrounding all the details is no surprise but it seems that not even the basics of the gospel are as easy to nail down as one might expect.

I propose the following as a bare bones, base minimum version of what one must believe in order to be saved. Call it the Gospel Proper, if you will.

Backing up a half-step, you agree that the meaning of "gospel" is God's message of salvation, and that salvation is eternal life?

 

[Rosenritter]

The question, "What is the Gospel?" has come up a few times in various recent conversations I've had both here on TOL and elsewhere and I've been somewhat surprised by the degree of confusion that exists around what seems like ought to be a simple thing. Of course the confusion surrounding all the details is no surprise but it seems that not even the basics of the gospel are as easy to nail down as one might expect.

I propose the following as a bare bones, base minimum version of what one must believe in order to be saved. Call it the Gospel Proper, if you will.

• God exists.
• He is the Creator of all things and He is holy, perfect and just.
• We have, by doing evil things, rebelled against God.
• We, having rebelled against the God who gave us life, deserve death.
• God, being unwilling that all should perish, provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) in the person of His only begotten Son, God the Son, whom we call Jesus.
• Jesus, being Himself innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

I thought of taking each point one at a time and commenting on each but about half way through I thought it would be better to just leave them as they are. Otherwise, the temptation would be to take issue with something in my commentary rather than with any one point of the gospel proper that I've presented. I've also intentionally left out scripture references. Again, it felt like I was already debating an issue that may not be in dispute. Such references are easily found an presented if anyone wants to challenge the biblical veracity of any of these points.

Is there something that you think I've left out?
Is there something that I've included that you think might be good doctrine but isn't necessary to believe in order to be saved?
Is there something that you think is just flat out wrong?

Whatever you've got, bring it. Just try to be respectful and kind, please.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I think you missed something important in your last point. The believe "in thine heart" is not an extraneous; it's even specifically mentioned. It's a matter of defining what is meant by belief.

Romans 10:9-10 KJV
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Rosenritter]

As I mentioned to someone else already, I do not believe that someone could reject the divinity of Christ and be a Christian but being ignorant of a fact is not the same as rejecting it. There are certain facts that one must understand and believe in order to become saved. The deity of Christ is without any question an absolutely true biblical fact that I do not dispute in the slightest. I'm just not convinced that it happens to be one of the facts that one must accept in order to take that first step into a saving faith in Jesus Christ.

If I'm wrong, prove me wrong. You and I are about as far apart doctrinally as we can be and both still be Christians and so bear in mind that none of your doctrine is going to convince me. You'll have to restrict yourself to entirely biblical arguments.

Resting in Him,
Clete

In your hypothetical example, is the rejection of the divinity of Christ from maliciousness or from lack of understanding? If someone has only heard flawed explanations for the divinity of Christ, are they to be faulted for rejecting bad arguments?

I have a real example (not myself) of someone I knew whose understanding changed on this exact point of belief. From somewhat knowing him before, during, and after, The object of his faith remained unchanged: he believed in God and had faith in God. So what changed? Simply the realization that Jesus was the same God in which he had already placed his faith.

I don't think that he received a different spirit because of his change of belief, but rather that his belief was able to change because of the spirit of Christ. Is the divinity of Christ important? Yes, for how else could he forgive our sin? And how else can we truly know God as He reveals Himself to us? But are we saved by knowing certain "facts?" I would say that we are saved by faith, not by facts.

 

[Clete]

Backing up a half-step, you agree that the meaning of "gospel" is God's message of salvation, and that salvation is eternal life?

I agree that the gospel is what has been presented in the OP, with more emphasis added to the fact that Jesus is God Himself.

The dictionary meaning of the word 'gospel' itself is simply "good news". It can be and has been used to reference many different things.

 

[Clete]

I think you missed something important in your last point. The believe "in thine heart" is not an extraneous; it's even specifically mentioned. It's a matter of defining what is meant by belief.

Romans 10:9-10 KJV
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Agreed. I'll make the change.