God's Truth
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You are the one who said 'they' is not the faithful!
ECT The Gospel in Romans 10
- Thread starter glorydaz
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God's Truth
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Tambora, you just proved your theory wrong.
Yep.
Right off hand I can recall 1 Corinthians 10 and Acts 17 where he uses pagan practices and altars to make a point about Christianity.
Paul even quoted pagan poets to make a point at times.
God's Truth
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Paul was not using Pagans doing a baptism for their dead to prove Jesus rose from the dead and that we will too!
How do you ever get that Paul would use a Pagan belief to prove a Christian belief!
Correct.
Paul and all the faithful, not just apostles.
WHAT!!!!???
All the faithful were persecuted, not just apostles.
God's Truth
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'They' IS the faithful. 'We' are the Apostles, the preachers of the Way. They are the ones in danger.
I knew it would go way over your head.
But others will see.
God's Truth
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I hope you think about it some more, because you are badly mistaken.
God's Truth
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If someone else, or even if everyone else agreed with what you said, you all will be wrong.
God's Truth
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2 Corinthians 11:26
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers.
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers.
Are you that stupid and blind?
What you are asserting is that the faithful excludes apostles as being baptized for Jesus.
And that apostles excludes the faithful as being persecuted.
Trying to stick to your original error just leads you into further error.
God's Truth
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You made that up. Where does the scripture say 'the faithful', and where did you ever get that I said Paul is not a faithful?
Stop making things up and stop with your mean words.
That is exactly what you are doing.
glorydaz
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Right on both counts. :thumb:
God's Truth
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Here Paul says that 'we' HE AND THE OTHER APOSTLES would be false witnesses to say God raised up Christ if Christ was not raised up.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Paul had just got through saying 'we', as in him and the other Apostles would be found false witnesses if God did not raise up Jesus.
Then Paul explained how Jesus was raised, and he then goes back to if Jesus was not raised. What else shall they (believers) do which are baptized for the dead (Jesus), or even their own dead condition of their bodies when they die.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Paul spoke of those he converted to Christianity, and now he is speaking again about 'we'---the Apostle WITNESSES who are preaching that God raised Jesus.
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Paul had just got through saying 'we', as in him and the other Apostles would be found false witnesses if God did not raise up Jesus.
Then Paul explained how Jesus was raised, and he then goes back to if Jesus was not raised. What else shall they (believers) do which are baptized for the dead (Jesus), or even their own dead condition of their bodies when they die.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Paul spoke of those he converted to Christianity, and now he is speaking again about 'we'---the Apostle WITNESSES who are preaching that God raised Jesus.
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
God's Truth
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I have proved that the 'we' are the WITNESSES that God raised Jesus from the dead.
There is no mention of pagan practices; and, Paul would not use a pagan practice to prove a Christian belief.
There is no mention of pagan practices; and, Paul would not use a pagan practice to prove a Christian belief.
God's Truth
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29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
People are baptized for Jesus to resurrect them from the dead.
They are baptized for the sake of the dead condition their bodies will be in when they die until the resurrection of the dead.
They got baptized for the dead (themselves), to be raised.
People are baptized for Jesus to resurrect them from the dead.
They are baptized for the sake of the dead condition their bodies will be in when they die until the resurrection of the dead.
They got baptized for the dead (themselves), to be raised.
absolutely - I will always quote or show Romans 10:9-10 KJV when i can
different subject slightly, but related imo-
i think some Christians approach God's Word as if they are 'unbelievers'; always questioning, seeking a further truth or proof. when we understand what is written, as members of the BOC - instead of skepticism - it's ALL GOOD NEWS ! ! !
it can be as simple as - read the Bible like you believe it. because if you read the Bible like it's unbelievable, then that's what you'll see.
also, unfortunately, i think some agnostics, atheists, or folks that dislike Christianity see the blatant hypocrisy and false teachings everywhere and conclude that it's not for them, never to be studied seriously and believed. compounded by bickering and nit-picking from the confused, or bitter, or 'works' crowd, etc. - and the overly charismatic comics, mixed with kooks and nuts that are just part of everyone's lives -
then there is the impression some believers give, that they are a little better, smarter, closer to God, or more saved. or all of the above -
and don't get me started on the guys like me -
Actually, YOU have NOT.
To be a FALSE WITNESS as conveyed by Paul in 1 Cor 15, means to actually claim to have seen Christ and then deny Him as risen. Paul did see Christ, along with some of those with him, YOU on the other hand have NOT. The Greek word here is ψευδόμαρτυς (pseudomartys), and connotes only one meaning, FALSE WITNESS. Only JWs claim they are witnesses of something they actually are not, however, they ARE ψευδόμαρτυς (pseudomartys).
Perhaps you're both seeing a water ritual; where such a ritual might not be what the Apostle Paul is referring to.
A thought: The best way to study all these issues out is from Paul's overall narrative - Romans thru Philemon.
"The Greek" will fall for short of that; "the Historical Grammatical Structure" will fall for short of that; "the best translation" argument will fall for short of that; as will this or that external writer.
2 Tim. 3:16, 17 in light of Col. 1:25, 26.