glorydaz
Well-known member
Actually, I was just agreeing with what you said in the yellow above.
ECT The Gospel in Romans 10
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Actually, I was just agreeing with what you said in the yellow above.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course you just leave out what Paul says here:
"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Ro.1:7-8).
Of course you only quoted verse seven because verse eight proves that the epistle is only addressed to believers. You wouldn't want anyone to see that, would you?
You haven't yet learned about English pronouns yet. Here are John's own words about that:
"And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:4-7).
It is evident that the first two instances where John uses the pronoun "we" the reference is to believers. And there is nothing that even hints that the meaning of "we" in the next two usages has changed its meaning.
But according to you these two instances where John uses the pronoun "we" no longer is referring to believers but now it refers to unbelievers.
That is just one example how you mangle the Scriptures in order to make them fit your preconceived ideas. And then you have the audacity to claim that Peter was not walking in darkness here:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).
Even though Paul says that Peter was to be blamed and that Peter walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel you say that He was not walking in darkness but instead He was walking in the light.
You prove that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to win an argument.
It is speaking of the human race in general and the fact that they are under judgment. He continues until he sums up His argument where he speaks of the judgment of man according to his deeds or works:
"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).
By using these words Paul is leading up to this conclusion that no one is saved by his works. Paul is not addressing anyone in particular in these verses but instead mankind as a whole.
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glorydaz
Well-known member
:cheers:
glorydaz
Well-known member
What? Mankind as a whole? Some of them might actually be unbelievers? Oh my.
I simply cannot take you seriously enough to wade through your entire rant, Jerry. Take away the scripture verses and we see Swaggering Jerry. You have lost all credibility by claiming I said what I didn't. You are really quite similar to God's UNtruth.... smarter, but just as bad at twisting what the other poster has written, and just as bad about thinking you know it all. That's a shame.
:blabla: :blabla: :blabla:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I discuss many different subjects on this thread and have major disagreements with others. And our conversations remain on a civil level.
But that cannot be said in regard to my conversations with you and glorydaz. When I disagree with either of you then you both revert to name-calling and my character comes under constant attack. And at that time you refuse to discuss the meaning of what is actually being taught in the Scriptures.
I often wonder if either one of you are saved because your behavior makes me think that you neither of you cares anything about what Paul said here:
"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4:1-3).
I see no evidence that you even try to do that and I wonder why.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I answered you and gave evidence that the context speaks of mankind as a whole. But you just ignored that evidence and gave no reason why you believe that I am wrong.
You were just looking for an excuse so your wouldn't have to answer my remarks about what I said here:
Of course you just leave out what Paul says here:
"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Ro.1:7-8).
You only quoted verse seven because verse eight proves that the epistle is only addressed to believers. You wouldn't want anyone to see that, would you?
You haven't yet learned about English pronouns yet. Here are John's own words about that:
"And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:4-7).
It is evident that the first two instances where John uses the pronoun "we" the reference is to believers. And there is nothing that even hints that the meaning of "we" in the next two usages has changed its meaning.
But according to you these two instances where John uses the pronoun "we" no longer is referring to believers but now it refers to unbelievers.
That is just one example how you mangle the Scriptures in order to make them fit your preconceived ideas. And then you have the audacity to claim that Peter was not walking in darkness here:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).
Even though Paul says that Peter was to be blamed and that Peter walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel you say that He was not walking in darkness but instead He was walking in the light.
You prove that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to win an argument
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God's Truth
New member
Did you hear that Patrick?
God's Truth
New member
That is something some teachers you chose say.
Show in the Bible where it is a Pagan practice.
Why would Pagans baptize?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Jerry seems to have changed his story...from it's not the gospel to it's the gospel just not addressed to unbelievers. So, I'm wondering if he's sticking to the rest of what he claimed. :think:
So, Jerry, do you still insist that "phrase" is talking about our "earthly bodies" being delivered from infirmity....."?
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
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So, Jerry, do you still insist that "phrase" is talking about our "earthly bodies" being delivered from infirmity....."?
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
glorydaz
Well-known member
"Mankind as a whole" sure seems like it would include believers and unbelievers. But, what do I know?
"Mankind as a whole" sure seems like it would include believers and unbelievers. But, what do I know?
:chuckle:
"Mankind as a whole" sure seems like it would include believers and unbelievers. But, what do I know?
it sure does -
perhaps jerry considers a different form of 'unbeliever', such as, folks in isolated jungles and remote parts of the world, where they don't yet have any concept of God, a creator and savior - then maybe we wouldn't start with Romans 10 to an audience that's been living under a rock - the part of mankind that isn't as a whole ? -
atrol:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You know very little. Is what Paul saying here not referring to mankind as a whole?:
"the righteous judgment of God;Who will render to every man according to his deeds" (Ro.2:6).
Now tell us why we shouldn't believe that the words "every man" is not referring to mankind as a whole.
You haven't yet learned about English pronouns yet. Here are John's own words about that:
"And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:4-7).
It is evident that the first two instances where John uses the pronoun "we" the reference is to believers. And there is nothing that even hints that the meaning of "we" in the next two usages has changed its meaning.
But according to you these two instances where John uses the pronoun "we" no longer is referring to believers but now it refers to unbelievers.
That is just one example how you mangle the Scriptures in order to make them fit your preconceived ideas. And then you have the audacity to claim that Peter was not walking in darkness here:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).
Even though Paul says that Peter was to be blamed and that Peter walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel you say that He was not walking in darkness but instead He was walking in the light.
You prove that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to win an argument.
glorydaz
Well-known member
So, in other words. You can't prove me wrong in Romans, so you jump over to 1 John 1?
Ever heard of the Royal "WE", Jerry? Like "we" need a bath, today." Or it's time for OUR bath..... when talking to someone in an old folks home, for instance? "We" both are not taking a bath. :chuckle:
I like how you ignore, "If we SAY....." You're hung up on the royal "we" and ignore the important word, "SAY". John is comparing those who claim what they do not have with those who actually have it. Case in point (God's UNtruth) - "If we say we are saved by obeying, we have not the truth in us." She walks in darkness and claims what she does not have. The TRUTH is not IN her.
The example you keep giving of Peter is just as nonsensical as your other examples. You're fishing without any real bait.
glorydaz
Well-known member
it sure does -
perhaps jerry considers a different form of 'unbeliever', such as, folks in isolated jungles and remote parts of the world, where they don't yet have any concept of God, a creator and savior - then maybe we wouldn't start with Romans 10 to an audience that's been living under a rock - the part of mankind that isn't as a whole ? -
True. I always start with "All men sin...." That's something people can relate to right off the bat. Truth be told, a variety of verses are used to preach the Gospel. When someone wonders what it means to "believe", I always quote Romans 10. Seems pretty clear to me.
Your lack of education on the subject of pagan religious practices does not make it untrue.
Sorry to disappoint you, but scripture does not list every pagan religious practice that was going on.
It was part of their religious practice, as was sacrificing animals.
Now that all of that is out of the way .... let's use scripture ONLY to show that your assertion that "the dead" in 1 Cor 15:29 is referring to a singular person (Jesus) is incorrect.
step by step
1 Corinthians 15 KJV
(29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
(30) And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
(29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
(30) And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
We is a group of people - the faithful, with Paul included.
They would be another group that is not the faithful we group, and would not include Paul.
In other words, Paul would have used we in both verses if he were referring to the faithful. But he doesn't. He uses they in one verse.
Now, let's look at the verses again, but this time I will replace "the dead" with "Jesus" (as you assert that is who 'the dead' refers to).
Remember: we is the faithful; they is not the faithful.
1 Corinthians 15 KJV
(29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for Jesus, if Jesus rise not at all? why are they then baptized for Jesus?
(30) And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
(29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for Jesus, if Jesus rise not at all? why are they then baptized for Jesus?
(30) And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
Makes no sense whatsoever that those that don't even believe in Jesus would be baptized for Him.
God's Truth
New member
I know God’s Word and the Bible is not a book on pagan practices.
Show where in the Bible baptisms for deceased loved ones are performed.
You think Paul was using an evil Pagan practice to prove a Christian practice!
God's Truth
New member
‘They’ are the people getting baptized; ‘we’ is Paul and the other Apostles.
The Christians were not in jeopardy as the Apostles were!