The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

[Clete]

Okay, so it turned out that I had a really nicely clear sky this morning. Not that it turned out to matter much because things aren't exactly flat where I'm located and so my horizon is slightly elevated above what it would be if I was looking out over several miles of water but, nevertheless, I did get some good data with the Spyglass App on my iPhone.

First, I'll post a screen shot of what was reported to me as being the "official" Sunrise time for my location.
Notice on this first image that while some website I went to said that Sunrise was at 7:25:16 for my location, it turns out that it actually wasn't. The Sun is still 1.1° below the horizon...

View attachment 26721



Next is a screen shot of when the Sun crossed 90° East. Notice that at this point the Sun is a mere .3° below the horizon at my location (that's less than one apparent solar diameter, which is .5°) ...

View attachment 26723




Last is a screen shot of when the Sun actually got to the horizon line. So here we see the Sun at 0.0° above the horizon and it is at 90.2° East....

View attachment 26722

Now, keep in mind that the actual equinox does not occur until 4:58pm Central Time (That's 21:58 UTC) and so that accounts for why the Sun was at 90.2° East when it crossed the horizon this morning. I'll take some more images this evening and the sunset should be even closer to due West than the sunrise was to due East.

We should also keep in mind that there is some disagreement about when sunrise actually happens. Is it when the first glimpse of the Sun peaks above the horizon or is it when the midpoint of the Sun's disk touches the horizon or is it when the whole disk of the Sun is visible above the horizon. Also given the refraction that happens due to the atmosphere, it's rather hard to pin down precisely when any of those three things happen.

BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER!

Picking nits over those kinds of details is not relevant to the point here. The point is that every single person on this entire planet would have gotten very similar numbers this morning. It absolutely does not matter how far North or South you are at all and the only way in which your East and West position matters is that those who happen to be at a location where the Sun rises or sets at 21:59 UTC are really going to have the Sun rise or set absolutely dead smack on the due East or due West direction. For everyone else, the difference is to small to notice without very precise equipment.

This is absolute proof, and I'm mean that literally, it is absolute PROOF that the Earth IS NOT FLAT! In fact, it is not only proof that the Earth cannot be flat but it is proof that the Earth is a sphere and that the Sun is very far away.

Clete

 

[Clete]

For those of you who are Christians and who hold to this nonsensical idea that the Earth is flat, in spite of the several indisputable proofs that have been presented in this thread, I would like to ask you to consider just why you refuse to allow plain reason to persuade your mind. I'm not interested in having you present an answer to that question to me. The question is for your own consideration and benefit.

These are not matters of opinion. This is not a debate akin to whether you prefer a traditional worship service or a more contemporary style of Sunday mornings services. There are plenty of well meaning and very thoughtful and rational people on both sides of that issue and neither side is right or wrong in any absolute sense. That's because your preferred style of worship is an opinion. It may be more weighty than whether you like the taste of peas or whether you like your fried eggs sunny side up or otherwise but it is still, more or less, a matter of opinion.

Whether the Earth is flat, however, is not a matter of opinion at all. The Earth is either flat or it is not. Opinion simply does not come into it. You can be on one side or the other of the debate but regardless of which side you take you can only either be right or wrong. There is no inbetween. This is known as the law of excluded middle. It is a fundamental fact of reality that any truth claim is either true or it false and cannot be both at the same time and in the same way. This even applies to opinions! It is either true or it is false that I think that coffee tastes like poison. Someone else may disagree with my assessment of coffee's flavor but it doesn't change the fact that I think it tastes like I just committed suicide by having swallowed it.

Now, the shape of the Earth is a matter of fact and as such, there will be certain observable characteristics that we can use to test to see whether it is one shape or another. If this kind of thinking does not work then there is no way to know anything and by calling such thinking into question you undermine everything else you claim is real, not the least of which is the existence of God and the death, burial and resurrection of His Son, which is no less than the totality of the Christian faith!

And so, I ask you again, why do you not permit the application of clearly understandable logic and reason to persuade your mind? What is it that you think you're protecting? It isn't the Christian faith! It isn't the Bible! It isn't the honor of your Lord and Savior! On the contrary, it is just the exact opposite of that. Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Is the truth contradictory? Is the truth irrational? Certainly not! The laws of logic and reason exist precisely because of God’s rational nature! Indeed they are His nature!

Never does God admonish us to turn off our minds, to stop thinking and simply believe something mindlessly. On the contrary, God says to us “Come now, and let us reason together." In fact, when the author of Hebrews defines faith for us, what concepts does he employ? Mindlessness? Belief without evidence? NO! Just the opposite! Faith is all about substantive evidence and, more specifically, it is our response to that evidence, our willingness to be persuaded by the evidence that is all around us and, perhaps most importantly in this context, it is the willful rejection of that evidence that condemns the ungodly.

Romans 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.​

For those who have read this post and remain unconvinced that a rejection of sound reason and logic is a rejection of God Himself and the whole of the Christian faith, I urge you to read the following article. Perhaps hearing it from someone other than me will help get it to penetrate.

The Nature & Necessity of Logic

by Craig S. Hawkins


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Bright Raven]

So is this a lie?
Charles Duke watched from Mission Control in Houston when his fellow NASA astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin made their historic Moon landing on July 20, 1969. Less than three years later he followed in their footsteps as the Apollo 16 lunar module pilot.

The module carrying Duke and Apollo 16 Commander John Young reached the lunar surface on April 20, 1972. At 36 years and 201 days old, Duke became the youngest person to walk on the Moon and the tenth to reach Earth’s natural satellite.

Duke had been the CapCom (capsule communicator) for Apollo 11, serving as the link between NASA flight controllers in Houston and Armstrong, Aldrin and Michael Collins in the Apollo 11 spacecraft when they traveled to the Moon.

'IT WAS VERY CLOSE TO AN ABORT': HOW THE NERVE-WRACKING FINAL SECONDS OF THE APOLLO 11 MOON LANDING UNFOLDED

Finally seeing the lunar surface up close was incredible, Duke told Fox News, during a New York City event hosted by lens maker Zeiss on Friday.

A portrait of Apollo 16 astronaut Charles Duke. (NASA)
A portrait of Apollo 16 astronaut Charles Duke. (NASA)
“In flight, you get the dynamics, you get the visual cues, you get the wonder of what you’re doing,” he said. “But, of course, actually stepping on and walking on the Moon was a lot more exciting than Mission Control because of the visuals, the visual stimulation that you get. Your ‘wonder, awe, excitement’ – all of these emotions and all just rolled into one.”

“Probably the most dynamic part of the mission was the landing,” he added. “You’re coming into an area that you have never seen before and there are a lot of features on the lunar surface that were visible, visually, when you came in, but we hadn’t seen in our photographs.”

ASTRONAUT DESCRIBES WATCHING THE MOON LANDING WITH PRESIDENT NIXON IN THE WHITE HOUSE

Apollo 16 was the only NASA mission to target the “lunar highlands,” an area in the Moon’s southeast quadrant with hilly and grooved terrain, according to the space agency.

Duke examines the surface of a large lunar boulder during the Apollo 16 mission. (NASA)
Duke examines the surface of a large lunar boulder during the Apollo 16 mission. (NASA)
The Apollo 16 lunar module spent 71 hours, 2 minutes and 13 seconds on the surface of the Moon. During their visit, Duke and Young explored the region in a Lunar Roving Vehicle, conducted science experiments and collected rock samples.

The pair became part of a very exclusive group - only 12 people have walked on the Moon.

'THERE WAS A BIT OF TENSION': ASTRONAUT DESCRIBES WATCHING MOON LANDING WITH BUZZ ALDRIN’S FAMILY

Duke told Fox News that he was humbled to be chosen as an astronaut. The Air Force pilot was one of 19 pilots selected in April 1966 as part of NASA’s fifth group of astronauts.

Charles Duke was the tenth person to walk on the Moon. (NASA)
Charles Duke was the tenth person to walk on the Moon. (NASA)
“You were humbled that you got selected and you were honored that you got selected, that the United States is trusting you to fly this multi-million-dollar spacecraft and do a job and bring back some science knowledge and information,” he told Fox News.

Earth’s natural satellite continues to be a source of fascination.

APOLLO 8 ASTRONAUTS RECOUNT NASA'S EPIC FIRST MISSION TO THE MOON

There have been some high-profile unmanned lunar missions in recent months.

Apollo 16 lifts off from Launch Complex 39, Kennedy Space Center on April 16, 1972,
Apollo 16 lifts off from Launch Complex 39, Kennedy Space Center on April 16, 1972, (NASA)

China, for example, recently became the first country to successfully land a spacecraft on the far side of the Moon.

Israel’s unmanned Beresheet spacecraft was recently launched from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station on a historic mission to the Moon. Beresheet, which is the Hebrew word for “beginning,” is expected to land on the lunar surface on April 11. The spacecraft also will be the first private mission to reach the Moon.

'FULL WORM SUPERMOON' LIGHTS UP THE SKY IN STUNNING PICTURES

The U.S. also has its sights set on the Moon. President Donald Trump wants U.S. astronauts to return to the Moon as a foundation for future Mars missions and the administration has cited Moon missions as a key element of the 2019 NASA budget.

File photo - Apollo 16 astronaut Charles Duke responds to a question during a live television interview on Monday, July 20, 2009, at NASA Headquarters in Washington.
File photo - Apollo 16 astronaut Charles Duke responds to a question during a live television interview on Monday, July 20, 2009, at NASA Headquarters in Washington. (NASA/Paul E. Alers)

In a speech last year, Vice President Mike Pence discussed plans for a Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway, a NASA orbital outpost that will be in the vicinity of the Moon. The chair of the National Space Council described the goal of putting an American on board the Lunar Orbital Platform before the end of 2024. “We’re on the cusp of a new golden age of exploration,” Pence said.

CLICK HERE TO GET THE FOX NEWS APP

The U.S. is the only country to place astronauts on the Moon, having done so most recently in December 1972 during the Apollo 17 mission.

July 20, 2019, marks the 50th anniversary of the famous Apollo 11 Moon landing.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Following.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Hi everyone. I see my thread is still going strong. I think I'll get back into this debate. I hope everyone is well.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Evidence of flat earth from high rise balloon video

I have watched hundreds of videos from high altitude balloons. Despite the use of a Go-Pro fish eye lens that distorts the horizon with a curvature that does not exist they all have the same characteristics.

1. The horizon in all directions rises up with the balloon to eye level as it should if the earth is flat.

2. The entire earth below looks flat.

3. The earth shows absolutely no motion whatever.

4. The sun looks close and small and moves while the earth remains motionless.

Empirical evidence is hard to refute.

--Dave

 

[The Berean]

Odd, we have refuted flat earth nonsense dozens of times over two threads, Dave. You simply either refuse to admit you don't understand physics and have yet to address how a geosynchronous satellite would function in a flat Earth model. Lets be honest here, Dave. You have no interest in discussing this topic on a rational level. Either, you are trolling all of us to or you are actually deluded and believe the Earth is flat. I'm not quite sure which.

 

[The Berean]

I recently watched the film Hidden Figures. It tells the story of three African-American women who were involved in the NASA Space program in the early 1960's. The women were part of a group of human female "computers". One the women, Katherine Johnson, was instrumental in creating the orbital mechanics for the Mercury capsule including the capsule reentry course which was a crucial part of the mission.

During the Mercury program NASA brought in an IBM mainframe computer to crunch the orbital data. John Glenn didn't trust the computer and asked the NASA bosses to have Katherine Johnson to verify the numbers. And she did. Johnson is still alive today at 100 years old. Johnson was the first woman at NASA to author a technical report titled, Determination of Azimuth Angle at Burnout for Placing a Satellite Over a Selected Earth Position.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19980227091

 

[DFT_Dave]

Odd, we have refuted flat earth nonsense dozens of times over two threads, Dave. You simply either refuse to admit you don't understand physics and have yet to address how a geosynchronous satellite would function in a flat Earth model. Lets be honest here, Dave. You have no interest in discussing this topic on a rational level. Either, you are trolling all of us to or you are actually deluded and believe the Earth is flat. I'm not quite sure which.

I believe it is very possible and likely the earth is flat with a dome as the Bible says it is. There's no "absolute proof" for the heliocentric model. And cosmology is not now, and has never been, based on logic alone, a premise has always been required.

You, and everyone who believes in the heliocentric model thinks flat earth has been completely and absolutely refuted much in the same way atheists think they have refuted the existence of God. But I'm not so easily convinced by either group.

As we see the revealing of the "Deep State Globalists" in their attempt to frame President Trump with their own made up story about Russian collision I have an even deeper suspicion about NASA than ever before.

Check out the video evidence from high altitude balloons and get back to me on that.

--Dave

 

[The Berean]

I believe it is very possible and likely the earth is flat with a dome as the Bible says it is. There's no "absolute proof" for the heliocentric model. And cosmology is not now, and has never been, based on logic alone, a premise has always been required.

You, and everyone who believes in the heliocentric model thinks flat earth has been completely and absolutely refuted much in the same way atheists think they have refuted the existence of God. But I'm not so easily convinced by either group.

As we see the revealing of the "Deep State Globalists" in their attempt to frame President Trump with their own made up story about Russian collision I have an even deeper suspicion about NASA than ever before.

Check out the video evidence from high altitude balloons and get back to me on that.

I have. Many times. And I see a global Earth. Your Biblical interpretations are seriously flawed.

You seem obsessed with NASA. Does NASA control all space travel and rocket launches worldwide? I worked in the satellite industry for almost 20 years. Not one of my satellites were NASA satellites or part of any government project. They were all commercial satellites. It's obvious you really don't understand how large the space business is if you think NASA is in charge of commercial space projects. Today, most of the business are commercial ventures that have nothing to do with NASA. I have launched satellites on Russian and French rockets. Are the Russians and French in on the "conspiracy" as well?

Again, you have yet to describe to me how a geosynchronous satellite would work in a flat earth system.

Can you explain this to us, Dave?

 

[Right Divider]

3. The earth shows absolutely no motion whatever.

Time lapse photography shows the stars moving around the poles (and in different directions, north and south).

How many times will you continue to tell these falsehoods?

4. The sun looks close and small and moves while the earth remains motionless.

Again you try to use your false perceptions to describe reality.

They are no more true now than when you started this thread.

 

[DFT_Dave]

I recently watched the film Hidden Figures. It tells the story of three African-American women who were involved in the NASA Space program in the early 1960's. The women were part of a group of human female "computers". One the women, Katherine Johnson, was instrumental in creating the orbital mechanics for the Mercury capsule including the capsule reentry course which was a crucial part of the mission.

During the Mercury program NASA brought in an IBM mainframe computer to crunch the orbital data. John Glenn didn't trust the computer and asked the NASA bosses to have Katherine Johnson to verify the numbers. And she did. Johnson is still alive today at 100 years old. Johnson was the first woman at NASA to author a technical report titled, Determination of Azimuth Angle at Burnout for Placing a Satellite Over a Selected Earth Position.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19980227091

The "math" involved in cosmology require a primes. "If" the earth is a spinning globe orbiting the sun "then" we can calculate etc.

But if the earth is flat and the sun moves over it then other calculations would have to be devised to determine etc.

Math presumes a cosmological reality but does not prove it.

--Dave

 

[The Berean]

The "math" involved in cosmology require a primes. "If" the earth is a spinning globe orbiting the sun "then" we can calculate etc.

But if the earth is flat and the sun moves over it then other calculations would have to be devised to determine etc.

Math presumes a cosmological reality but does not prove it.

--Dave

No, math models the cosmological reality. They created the orbital path based on the observation of a global Earth. And the Mercury capsule followed the path described by the orbital math. And John Glenn returned to Earth safely, So if the Earth is not a global but flat that would mean that the orbital path created by Katherine Johnson was 100% wrong. Yet, somehow John Glenn's Mercury capsule somehow returned to Earth safely using incorrect math? How does that work?

 

[DFT_Dave]

I have. Many times. And I see a global Earth. Your Biblical interpretations are seriously flawed.

You seem obsessed with NASA. Does NASA control all space travel and rocket launches worldwide? I worked in the satellite industry for almost 20 years. Not one of my satellites were NASA satellites or part of any government project. They were all commercial satellites. It's obvious you really don't understand how large the space business is if you think NASA is in charge of commercial space projects. Today, most of the business are commercial ventures that have nothing to do with NASA. I have launched satellites on Russian and French rockets. Are the Russians and French in on the "conspiracy" as well?

Again, you have yet to describe to me how a geosynchronous satellite would work in a flat earth system.

Can you explain this to us, Dave?

There is absolutely no video from high altitude balloons that show a moving globe earth.

I've posted many video that show how "satellites" have been put into space by balloons which would have no problem working within the flat earth.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Time lapse photography shows the stars moving around the poles (and in different directions, north and south).

How many times will you continue to tell these falsehoods?

Again you try to use your false perceptions to describe reality.

They are no more true now than when you started this thread.

As you say, "the stars are moving", not the earth. The Dome effects how we see the movement of sun, moon, and stars above us. That the heavenly bodies are moving and not the earth is what we all see and experience.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

No, math models the cosmological reality. They created the orbital path based on the observation of a global Earth. And the Mercury capsule followed the path described by the orbital math. And John Glenn returned to Earth safely, So if the Earth is not a global but flat that would mean that the orbital path created by Katherine Johnson was 100% wrong. Yet, somehow John Glenn's Mercury capsule somehow returned to Earth safely using incorrect math? How does that work?

That any one went up in a rocket and can back to earth is one thing, that anyone circled a globed earth or went to the moon is another thing. The one does not prove the other.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

As you say, "the stars are moving", not the earth.

Your assumption is that the earth is stationary and that it is the stars that are moving.

The Dome effects how we see the movement of sun, moon, and stars above us. That the heavenly bodies are moving and not the earth is what we all see and experience.

The FACT that the stars rotate in OPPOSITE directions around the north and south poles conclusively proves that the earth is NOT flat.

 

[The Berean]

There is absolutely no video from high altitude balloons that show a moving globe earth.

I've posted many video that show how "satellites" have been put into space by balloons which would have no problem working within the flat earth.

--Dave

Dave, this just shows you know nothing about geosynchronous satellites. They are large structures that usually weight 5-6 tons. They stay in orbit roughly 15 years, even longer. So you want us to believe that a balloon will lift a 5-6 ton structure and keep it afloat for 15+ years? Really? Here are some of the satellite I worked on. As everyone can see they are quite large and very heavy.

View attachment 26755

View attachment 26756

By they way no balloon could ever place a satellite into orbit.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Your assumption is that the earth is stationary and that it is the stars that are moving.


The FACT that the stars rotate in OPPOSITE directions around the north and south poles conclusively proves that the earth is NOT flat.

What would prove the earth is moving would be that we experience it moving.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

What would prove the earth is moving would be that we experience it moving.

--Dave

Once AGAIN, Dave tries to stack the deck with his opinions.

The FACT ... once AGAIN.... that the stars APPEAR to be rotating around the poles in OPPOSITE directions (at the SAME time) proves CONCLUSIVELY that the earth is not flat.

So instead of trying to play your usual game of DISTRACTION, address this ISSUE that CONCLUSIVELY proves that the earth is NOT flat.

(this is one of MANY issues that Dave cannot solve and therefore attempts to distract instead).